Self-defence teaching in TKD -trends research

true that, I get out of a headlock like that, put my closer arm under their chin and my further arm in the back of their knee and scoop them over.

 

If you want an example, here is one:

If we assume that a double lapel grab is used for one of three things;

1. To intimidate your opponent.
2. To push your opponent backwards.
3. To pull your opponent towards you i.e. a head butt attack.

Then we can choose one of these scenarios. Lets take the third.

· When you are grabbed, circle your arms over your opponent’s arms and gather your hands while you hit your adversary in the nose with both of your hands (closed stance A).
· Turn towards 10 O’clock while holding your opponent’s arms with your left hand (your left hand grabs your opponent’s left hand at your chest) and striking his left underarm (pressure point Colon 10) with your right knife hand (inward knife hand strike) while settling down in a right L-stand.
· Turn abruptly clockwise to about 1:30 while striking the opponent’s left side of his neck with a left outward knife hand strike while grabbing his hands with your right hand (as a check) as you make a right long-stand.
· Now kick your assailant in the back of his head with a left reverse hooking kick.

This is one of the techniques our TKD students train. Notice that the situation assumes that the opponent is pulling you in to his head butt attack (he can’t kick you). The counter attack (the kick to the head) first comes after the opponent has been seriously stunned, so the risk of a counter-attack is very low. Students are also taught that they do not have to use the whole technique in a confrontation if it is not necessary.

I would like to put a little video clip of the technique in, but am unfortunately not aware of how to do this.

 

Thanks for all the replies. I know have a clearer idea of the style of SD taught in typical TKD clubs.

I’m surprised that some of you think that a double lapel grab is unrealistic. A double lapel grab in a static compliant drill in a dojang might be but it would clearly come as a nasty shock if someone does grab your lapels and give you a good shake –if your lucky…

Grabbing someone’s lapels and pulling them onto a headbut is a well known and (IMO) very credible streetfighting attack. Twisty-wristy and kicks in the nads are not likely to save your bacon in the split second it takes for them to do it. But that’s only my opinion.

Anyway, the techniques/approaches mentioned seem pretty typical of mainstream TKD (and most other q-TMAs for that matter). It seems that despite the claims, typical TKD self-defence continues to lack credibility.

On a side note.
Side headlocks as someone brought them up. Two main variations –facing eachother and facing same way. Only my opinions…..

If facing eachother. An advanced grappler/MMAer would call this a standing guillotine choke which is frankly awesomely effective and in real terms quite difficult to escape without initiating groundfighting. Fortunately a self-defence aggressor is unlikely to know how to make the instinctive headlock into a choke. Attack his face/throat and struggle.

If facing same way. Again a skilled opponent can make this into an effective strangle/choke. But in SD it is unlikely that there is any real risk of immediate asphyxiation. Attacking his legs may lead to being dragged to the ground. A determined attacker is less likely to let go to keep his balance than your brother in a playfight.
Try pulling backwards while pushing on his elbow (somewhere near your ear). Prize your head out and counterattack with extreme violence. Or try to attack his eyes/face etc but you’ll find that you lack power as movement of the shoulders is inhibited.

A good and often overlooked attack is to get your opponent in a simple side headlock, grabbing your own clothing around the waist to allow a free hand with which you can repeatedly smack him in the face. Once he becomes preoccupied with this, switch to a two-handed strangle until his legs go weak (or taps in training).

 

fact is, someone puts you in a head lock they're gonna start pounding you in the face.

so I try to learn responses that are v.simple and effective.



ps. our instructor tells us to kick low if we ever have an altercation. He also says the best self defence is to not be there...

 

Bigfoot

Sounds like a relatively more commonsensical approach in general. At least you've realised and addressed the contexts in which a double lapel grab might occur.

Not sure what alll the stances you mention are but seems quite sratightforward. No twisty-wristy tricks.

Not sure if I'd advocate a reverse hook kick to the head though -sounds very unrealistic in my opinion .

 

kickcatcher

I too (although I teach TKD) am an advocate of not kicking too high. We only kick high when our opponent is in a situation that makes it almost impossible for him to counter attack. In training, the higher kicks are predominantly used for balance and dexterity.

 

Good call. Agreed. It's a pitty that typical TKD responses aren't always simple or effective....

 

Poop loops, for some reason, you and I think alike on a lot of things. Such as the lapel grab, unless it is a pretty young thing who wishes to get closer to me, ahem.... No one had better be grabbing me but the shirt like that.

My own personal fav strike would be the palm strike to the nose or chin. Gets the opponents attention REALLY fast. If they can still stand, you have them in a lot of trouble, for kicks to wherever, body strikes, etc....

 

I presume that at the end of this thread you are going to post what you teach to use against the double lapel grab... you have offered many criticisms about TKD in general without giving any suggestions yourself about reactions to a double lapel grab for us "armchair artists" to pick apart.

Anyway, to the original subject. The double-lapel grab happens... and the response really depends on the context... e.g.

-Is it a static grab while the guy is talking to you?
One technique: one hand crosses under quickly and traps a cross hand to your chest rotating opponent's wrist up. Other hand shoots under and strikes opponent's forearm to the side WHILE you twist your body away from the side you are striking (into a side stance). Striking arm rotates in a circle over top of the trapped arm. Circling arm and trapping arm apply direct pressure on to wrist, alowing you to take him into a controlling technique with no unnecessary blood.

-Is it a punching grab to put you up against the wall?
One technique: Cross hand traps one of his hands and you turn out with his momentum (other hand drives into opponent's elbow) setting him into a swinging arm bar, which will accelerate him face first into the wall he was driving at.

-Is a pulling grab to put you into a headbutt?
One technique (remember this is a fast attack): Get your hands up to lessen the strike and protect the face (you are going to get hit... preferably on the hands). As his momentum drives in , drive your knee upwards in to groin, step to the side and sweep. If he keeps hold of you, allow your weight to crash on top of him, preferably driving knee to midesection or (worse) shoulkder into throat.

-Is it a twisting grab to move you in a circular manner towards a wall or other person?
Technique: His goal is to smash you into something and stun you. As you sping (if you can't rotate him), let your arms slap against the wall and absorb the blow. If you releases a hand to strike, trap the remaining hand and dribve your forearm into his elbow (hyperextend) or simply strike fast and straight towards nose or eyes. Or, throw a scoop kick into his inside knee, disrupting his balance.

Regardless, we have to consider if the person is a friend, how much force the situation requires, if there is more than one person, and so on... a "simple double lapel grab" is not really that simple...

I personally use some of the "twisty-wrist" stuff and it works for me... but it must be used in context. In my job, I know that I can't use heavy strikes against students... so I work on controlling techniques. If a students throws a punch or grabs me, I will subdue them... but with the least amount of damage possible. Some of the locks work for me and some don't. I take the ones that do and I train them hard. We practice them in class with resistance and we take it to the end... i.e. until the partner cannot resist anymore... and this causes you to evalaute how much something works... and practice responding to it when it doesn't.

 

OK .... well I am assuming you are referring to my comment kc and its only coming from a woman's perspective. I have (as a woman) yet to be confronted by someone grabbing at my lapels ... but have been grabbed from behind in a two hand shoulder grab or bear hug (head butting your attacker)... or grabbed by the wrists either by one or two hands.... that is not to say I wouldn't know how to defend myself.
If someone were to grab me from the front it would be to choke me .... (there have been one too many times I am sure this has crossed my husband's mind ... just kidding!!) And typically you have only 9-13 seconds before you lose consciousness so you need to act FAST. So here again you will find that twisty movement again.... rolling your shoulder in and tucking chin to chest to keep the pressure off your windpipe and then you can use a number of strikes to followup such as a palm heel to nose or chin for example.


I have taken a number of rape self defense classes and personally my first defense is not to find myself in a streetfight situation... for me the chances are greater in having to defend myself from a would-be rapist wherein I feel confident in my training.

The releases and strikes performed in a TKD curriculum are just guidelines.... and the stances, blocks and strikes are indeed simple and flexible and may, and must be varied according to the situation.
What is a pity is that you are generalizing here....

 

You would have been wrong in your presumption. The post wasn’t about that. But since you want to pick it apart, here is my approach to self-defence. It is heavily influenced by the likes of Geoff Thompson and Dave Turton but is mainly centred around what I think is likely to be achievable by me and likely to suit the confrontations/situations I might find myself in.

I think that it’s as much about how you train as what you train although high pressure training often leads to discarding impractical techniques anyway.

Against a double lapel grab I would first tuck my chin in. This is good as if they are headbutting, it presents your hard forehead where they expect your nose to be. I am confident that I can do it because tucking my chin in is instinctive in high pressure situations for me after years of boxing/kickboxing sparring. The same would not be true for typical TKDers who tend to have their chins exposed sparring.

As I become aware of why he has grabbed my lapels (i.e. is he lifting/pushing, pulling or swinging or holding/shaking) I can begin to take active steps to counter his move.
My favourite is to grab his left wrist from the outside with my right hands. Simultaneously swing my left hand over his right forearm in a move similar to an elbow strike. Swing my whole body to my right in a dropping/wheeling/pulling action. This will hopefully break his balance. Then immediately swing my body back the other way with a back-elbow or expansive backfist (depending on range) to lead a straight or overhand right –smack him on the face damn hard. Then lay into him until I feel save enough to run.

But that won’t suit every occasion. If he pushes me up against a wall, then I might kick/knee his groin as the wall offers a degree of support so I’m not at much risk of falling over. The kick is only the distraction (although it ought to be very hard). It needs to be followed up with hard hits.

I also drill uppercuts in situations similar to this scenareo as part of my standing clinchwork.

If he is swinging me about this is the worst case for me as I’m only light. I’d seek not to trip /fall. I’d hope to get a wide base for long enough to start to use a standing clinch approach. This would involve getting my own inside clinch control and kneeing/headbutting etc.

No twisty wristy for me.

Sorry for the long post.

 

That is quite similar to what I posted ...

Not so .... I have to disagree with this as this is not how we are taught to spar at our school.

 

You would have been wrong in your presumption. The post wasn’t about that. But since you want to pick it apart, here is my approach to self-defence. It is heavily influenced by the likes of Geoff Thompson and Dave Turton but is mainly centred around what I think is likely to be achievable by me and likely to suit the confrontations/situations I might find myself in.
I think that it’s as much about how you train as what you train although high pressure training often leads to discarding impractical techniques anyway.

Thank you for clarifying that. My initial take of this thread was by a person who had done TKD for a while, got into some more "realism based" schools and benefitted from it and is now looking to spread the word. I just many of your posts overly-general and a bit condescending towards TKDists. This post however is quite good.

Against a double lapel grab I would first tuck my chin in. This is good as if they are headbutting, it presents your hard forehead where they expect your nose to be. I am confident that I can do it because tucking my chin in is instinctive in high pressure situations for me after years of boxing/kickboxing sparring. The same would not be true for typical TKDers who tend to have their chins exposed sparring.

I like this and we do this as well. We also tuck the chin to reduce the effectiveness of chokes.

As I become aware of why he has grabbed my lapels (i.e. is he lifting/pushing, pulling or swinging or holding/shaking) I can begin to take active steps to counter his move.
My favourite is to grab his left wrist from the outside with my right hands. Simultaneously swing my left hand over his right forearm in a move similar to an elbow strike. Swing my whole body to my right in a dropping/wheeling/pulling action. This will hopefully break his balance. Then immediately swing my body back the other way with a back-elbow or expansive backfist (depending on range) to lead a straight or overhand right –smack him on the face damn hard. Then lay into him until I feel save enough to run.

This technique is pretty similar sounding to the ones I detailed. Notice that if you "just read" this technique, people could get the idea that it takes a long time to do it. There may be no "twisty wrist", but there sure is a lot of movement and grabbing and turning even while this guy is attacking.... pretty similar to what I do as well. And, I also can do it fast.

But that won’t suit every occasion. If he pushes me up against a wall, then I might kick/knee his groin as the wall offers a degree of support so I’m not at much risk of falling over. The kick is only the distraction (although it ought to be very hard). It needs to be followed up with hard hits.



Again, sounds pretty similar to other posters here. Keep in mind the level of violence you use as well. It's easy to say that you would go "all out" with strikes on a person, but in reality you may not want to.... whether from knowing then person or to avoid legal prosecution. Busting a guy up and breaking bones because "he grabbed me" isn't going to cut it in court. Ask your local law enforcement agents...


I think the main things that needs to be kept in mind REGARDLESS OF STYLE is that you need to train realistically. It's okay to try out techniques slowly to get a handle on them and then you need to try them out with speed against a resisting opponent. If it doesn't work, re-think it. Also, try the out and practice for failures.

Another issue is that in the past, some Taekwondo schools have set themselves up for sport and that's what they do. Others teach a more rounded martial art for defence. In light of added resources and cross training, I think you'll find a few TKD schools that do some pretty good self defence. Painting an entire system as useless because of a few replies based on a very general on-line post is a bit unreliable.

 

Thomas

If you have me down as a typical style basher –or preacher for that matter, I don’t mean to be. I just wanted to see what impact the ‘reality’ crowd are having on q-TMAs. I generalise, but I think that my generalisation are fair. Everyone says “not in my club” but most people aren’t being honest with themselves.

I agree that much of what you posted wasn’t that dissimilar to my suggestions. I did notice that. But when I say hit him, I really mean hit him and I am now confident that my hits won’t be pulled.

On my ‘overkill’ approach, I consider it a realistic. You have to hit an aggressor damn hard to have an impact if they are adrenaline fuelled and/or drunk.
In my job I have been in numerous confrontations. In many cases, I would have pre-emptively decked the aggressor had I not been in my role as a law enforcer. The only reason I have never had to result to violence is because of WHAT I am.
As for restraining people, that is mostly bollox IMO. Restraining someone for real is different to fancy Aiki locks in the dojo. When martial artists watch reality cop shows and then say “it took six guys to hold him down, they should learn some <insert martial art here>” then I suggest they put their pretty theories to test.

 

If you have me down as a typical style basher –or preacher for that matter, I don’t mean to be. I just wanted to see what impact the ‘reality’ crowd are having on q-TMAs. I generalise, but I think that my generalisation are fair. Everyone says “not in my club” but most people aren’t being honest with themselves.

I see where you are coming from. In my opinion, I would say that that the "reality crowd" has had a big impact on TMAs. The interest in reality-based martial arts and "No Hold Barred" competitions has led to a lot of thought and resources being pumped into the martial arts. Additionally it has forced a lot of people to realistically test what they are doing and if it works. It may not influence all TKD schools, but it does influence some. To generalize, I would say that if you go to a TKD school today, you will be much more apt to see defence in all ranges being taught than if you went 20 years ago.

I agree that much of what you posted wasn’t that dissimilar to my suggestions. I did notice that. But when I say hit him, I really mean hit him and I am now confident that my hits won’t be pulled.

On my ‘overkill’ approach, I consider it a realistic. You have to hit an aggressor damn hard to have an impact if they are adrenaline fuelled and/or drunk.
In my job I have been in numerous confrontations. In many cases, I would have pre-emptively decked the aggressor had I not been in my role as a law enforcer. The only reason I have never had to result to violence is because of WHAT I am.

I know where you are coming from here as well. But, as always, the level of violence MUST be considered. If a guy grabs you in the bar and you bust him up (the witness "Yeah, the guy grabbed him and then this guy just beat the heck out of him"), you will be in trouble. As for using overkill, in my opinion, it is unrealistic. Not every situation will be black and white. In my personal case, I am a public school teacher... if I defend myself from a student with bloody violence, I will probably lose my job. So, for my own needs, I train with as much restarining techniques as I can. I also practice responding to a person when they slip out of a lock... and we do this often.

As a law enforcement officer, you cannot use the "overkill" option or you would end up shooting people often (even if he had a knife, you won't get away with it easily.). Also, every time police beat someone down, they can expect to be investigated (look at Rodney King, the Haitian guy in NYC, and the recent big guy who had a heart attack while being beaten) and possibly get in trouble. You use many levels of violence with suspects, ranging from TALKING THEM DOWN to calming them to grabbing them and escorting them, to taking them down and beating them with a stick to shooting them. The same principle holds in martial arts: USE AS MUCH FORCE AS NECESSARY AND NO MORE.

As for restraining people, that is mostly bollox IMO. Restraining someone for real is different to fancy Aiki locks in the dojo. When martial artists watch reality cop shows and then say “it took six guys to hold him down, they should learn some <insert martial art here>” then I suggest they put their pretty theories to test.

See what I wrote above. Dpending on the situation, you may or may not be able to restrain someone. If you can, it will cut down on the legal headaches and on medical bills. If you can't, you must be prepared to respond anyway. Anyway, the thread is pretty interesting and I hope some others contribute as well!

 

Thomas

Good posts. We aren't worlds appart, there is plenty of common ground. I see you as much more progressive than the mainstream TKD that you seem keen to defend. Or am I generalising again?

I hope you don't teach English cos i'm rubbish at spellin although I can spell colour and centre

Anyway, it was a long post and I can't really address every point in it. But my 'overkill' verses your 'appropriate force' seem the main contention.

When I talk in terms of overkill I'm not advocating excessive force in non-lifethreatening circumstances. But I think that we need the option of truely devastating techniques as in many self-defence situations restraint would be illadvised. Against a kid maybe, but against a phyced-up drunk in a pub full of his mates?!!? I think that many q-TMAs don't have that truely devasting techniques to hand. Not to say that the techniques aren't somewhere in the syllabus. But are they drilled such that you can use them when you need them?

As for restraints. We are taught the twisty wristy stufff for work as it's politically correct. But I have much more faith in chokeholds than armlocks. Pain compliance is about as silly as pressure points when you try it on a drugged up nutter who wants to escape.

I said that I don't want to be a preacher. I'm in danger of going that way. so i'll stop.

 

Interesting thread.

I think this is something very important to consider in self defense. There are just way to many variables to think about when training techniques. If someone does do the double lapel grab and you train technique based, you now have to consider everything, then go through your mind to pick a technique that suits the situation. IMO that takes to long. Much easier to simply remember a few basic concepts then apply the SD to that. Most people will revert to the most basic techniques anyways in a real altercation when the adrenalin is pumping.

SD this way becomes an art instead of a science, and I think this is one of the things that I really enjoy about SD training.

 

Good point. But at the same time I don't think that it is practical to have concepts but no techniques to apply them with (I'm not saying that that is the case with you). You need both factors to bring them together in application. I think that realistic high-pressure training accross a broad spectrum of scenareos and phases of combat is needed for familiarity. That familiarity is the key to understanding which leads to improvisation IMO.

Also, some concepts are too complex and so not much diffferent to being technique driven.

 

Nice post and I think that we agree on quite a bit. For me, I have long ago come to the conclusion that there are TKD schools out there that focus on different things. I have attended sport oriented ones and found them fun... but very "sport oriented" in that they train mainly for tournaments and under the Olympic style rules. In my mind, this is okay... it is one of the sides of TKD. For me personally, that's not enough.

For me, I love the TKD school I am at. We do train sport aspects and we train poomsae and the whole lot. We also spend a lot of time on self defence and realistic applications. We bring cross training into the dojang and try to bring it all together with our TKD skills. I like to think of "my Taekwondo" as my personal style because I have selected, trained and blended different elements to fit me and my goals. Some of the stuff I do isn't in "Taekwondo books", but to me as long as the techniques fill my purposes and goals and set well within my philosophy of defence (which is Taekwondo to me), then the techniques become part of my Taekwondo.

The neat thing at our school is that if a student wants to train in the sport side, they can. If they want to train in self defence, they can. If they want to do both, they can. That to me is the benefit of a good (and open-minded) Taekwondo school.

Looking forward to more posts!

 

I agree. I just don't think it's necessary to know too many techniques because as artikon said, the more techniques you know, the longer it takes to choose one to use. If you know the way certain techniques work though, you can modify some basic techniques to work in many situations.

Instinctively i'd want to use strikes, fingers in eyes, kicking shins/knees/groin, palm heels to face, whatever.

On the other hand, if you gouge eyes or hurt the person too bad, there is the chance of legal troubles.

Unless i know if it's the only way to save my life, i wouldn't want to hurt someone that bad. I'd rather use joint locks and stuff.