Self-defence teaching in TKD -trends research

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by kickcatcher, Feb 10, 2004.

  1. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    Hello fello TKDers.

    I'm curious about the self-defence moves taught in TKD clubs. Generally they seem to be 'twisty-wristy'. But I was wondering if things are changing with the advent of 'reality' self-defence -al a Geoff Thompson, Dave Turton in UK etc.

    A common 'self-defence' scenario is the double lapel grab. What counters are you taught and do you think that the training/technique is realistic?
  2. stratiotes

    stratiotes Valued Member

    There are shin stomps/kicks, and then if they have one foot forward, sweeping the leg.
  3. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    we have learned different moves depending on the attack of course: hand, leg, weapon....
    we compete, meaning we spar by competition rules, but not always. we also focus on ''real'' fighting. i have seen that many people think that TKD is all about competition sparring and that's it. i really don't get it. TKD is so popular but still there are so many misconceptions.
  4. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    If someone has you by the lapels, isn't sweeping their leg simply going to take you into groundfighting?
    -Sorry if you weren't specifically answering my example scenario.

    What moves do you drill against a double lapel grab?

    -(i'm just using the lapel example to get specific info on the drills/techniques rather than blanket 'we train realistically' etc).
  5. stratiotes

    stratiotes Valued Member

    Yeah actually i'd use the shin stomps for that. But the sweep works, i'm not sure about double hand lapel grip but with one. The way we practiced it, when you sweep with the leg, you kinda slap/push their head the opposite direction taking them off balane. ALso, that can hurt bad enough it will most likely make them loose their grip. If not, it's still pretty easy to control how you go down with them, and then can follow up with some punches and stuff.
  6. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned


    I can visualise the type of move you mean.

    I'm not meaning to be overly argumentative or anything, but isn't deliberately sweeping someone whilst they are gripping you likely to result in them pulling you to the ground with them? And if they are falling, they are surely more likely to grip tighter rather than release their grip.

    Stomps are fine in themselves but hardly a fight finisher IMO.

    Do you have confidence inyour clubs self-defence training?
  7. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    realistically speaking..... how many people get accosted by grabbing "lapels" anyway??

    ... but if someone were to grab at my "lapels" with 'both' their hands ... I would take my right arm over and down between attackers arms, grab my right hand with my left lifting upwards then push and pull both hands while rotating clockwise across the front of my body while stepping into a right forward stance then pivot to the left countering with a frnt elbow strike/knife or hook punch to the head.

    This is what we are taught.... although I feel more apt to do a good knee strike to the abdomen or lower or front kick to the knee.
  8. Samurai_24

    Samurai_24 self-own3d

    One I was taught was, simply to push that little upside down triangle in their throat with one of your fingers.
  9. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    My personal stance on this is affected by a number of issues;

    1) I aint got the experience to teach the SD syllabus, due to lack of experience both outside and inside the training hall.

    2) Due to this I feel a lot of it is still a mystery to me, and it's very specific situational requirements mean I don't have a lot of faith in a lot of it. Times have changed and a lot of that syllabus has not, which is a massive problem.

    3) I honestly believe that if someone has grabbed you then it's going down to who has the better clinchwork, which TKD really has none of. I'd prefer if there was more of that than "SD" stuff.

    4) The most usefull SD stuff I feel from being grabbed comes from the Aikido syllabus and the balance breaks, which are the only things that have made it to TKD via Hapkido that I have any faith in.

    But as I said before, i aint got nearly enough experience in stuff like this. What we really need here is member Mark Davies to exaplin some of the stuff he does in class.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2004
  10. stratiotes

    stratiotes Valued Member

    I'm not that confident with actual self defense techniques, but it's because though we learn some good stuff but we don't practice it enough for it to become instinctive. There are tons of basic things to do though. We did learn a few wrist locks from a one handed lapel grab. Kicking the shins or knees would at the least allow for a follow up attack. I know the sweep works if done right because i let go everytime no matter how many times i tried to hold on, it just happens to fast if done right. Plus the strike to the face or neck in the opposite direction of the sweep hurts as much as it helps the sweep.

    I think the one handed one is more likely to be used than the 2 handed one. Usually one hand grabs the lapel, other hand draws back to punch, at that point can trap the hand and lean over, then kick the knees or shins. it hurts alot.
  11. kickcatcher

    kickcatcher Banned Banned

    Thanks for the responce.
    That is the type of 'SD' technique I expected was still being taught in most TKD clubs; the twisty-wristy stuff I mentioned. My personal opinion is that it is completely unrealistic :woo: . If someone grabs your lapels, they aren't going to stand there like yor training partner and give you time to do a complex wrist-lock escape. They are likely to be either pushing you up against a wall, swinging you around or headbutting you. The latter is particularly credible as an attack by the way, quite why most martial artists overlook it beggars belief.

    The kneestrike/low kick idea is much better but may also not be viable if you are moving around such as being pushed backwards -trying to kick might land your ass on the floor.

    Anyway, clearly Geoff Thompson has yet to make an impact in your dojo.

    cheers for getting back. Do you think that the way you enbtrain the drills is realistic enough to 'test' it? As for your lack of confidence, I'm sorry to hear it. Mind you, it's better than a false sense of security.
  12. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    IMO in particular for the TKD syllabus the SD stuff is there in order to confer to the student a better idea of how the human body works and build on the idea that a lot of what you try to do in these situations is not viable even if done correctly in some cases. It is not a self-defence situation exercise, that's what sparring is/should be.

    However, it something to add to the list of TMA drills that have been left to rot and no one bothering to expand them take them further. If the TMA scene had, had a figure like GT who would push these "drills" further into what is now referred to "Animal Day" then there would be a lot less reason for TMA's to come in for so much stick.

    But then who is going to do that?
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2004
  13. Intan86

    Intan86 Valued Member

    I think the first think I do to release myself is kick his groin and if it's a girl I'll stomp her feet.
    Then I'll grab his/her fingers and twist it outwards forcing her to release.
    And finally, I'll kick his/her face.
    If there was only one assailant I'll run to a safe place like crowded places and be far away as possible.
    If there are more I'll be ready for the next attack. Again, if there is chance to run then...RUNNNN!!!

    In a real situation, I will not try any stunts. For me, in self defence it is better to keep your techniques as simple as possible. Simple yet Effective.
  14. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    Yes, kick in the balls is always usefull. I'd probably do that too.

    The thing is, I won't let anybody grab my lapels in the first place. Why would they grab them if not to pound me? If they're reaching there, I back up, and go from there.

  15. Infesticon #1

    Infesticon #1 Majesticon

    "dbl grab of lapels"

    er, do you mean stranglehold(round neck)?

    that's what it should be anyway.

    Wedging block, palm strike to nose or forehead. grab them by shoulders or lapels sweep whilst turning them with the grab, punch/es to head/face run.

    kick to knackers, strangle sweep punch run.

    weird, hands over and under arms (V.hard to explain, easier to show) turn. breaks stranglehold, do whatever you like.

    And then we are shown a fair few things to do to someone punching.


    they punch, step outside palm strike their arm away,downward side kick (?) to the back of their knee and keeping your foot there so you bring them down, then whilst you stand on their calf stamp on their ankle

    there are more but I think that's more than enough.
  16. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    Don't think that SD techniques are always going to be useful. You'd need to learn thousands of them to be prepared for every possible situation. This is just teaching what you can do, and how and why it works. You make variations as you need them. That's what my instructor says, anyway. He's kinda short, since he's Asian from back in the day, so he'll always demonstrate how to take down bigger people. It WORKS. :) Even if it means grabbing his pinky and crushing it.

  17. HitNRun

    HitNRun New Member

    In an effort to expand the horizons of the TKD sylabus, my Master is also a student of BJJ and He is teaching us various takedowns, hip throws and so forth. Tonight we did a whole hour of two attacker drills where two people (the attacker and attackee) would tie up and then the attackee would try to keep one attacker between himself and the other attacker. This was physically exhausting class and some of us got roughed up.

    This is probably no where near as effective as strictly going to a JJ school, but I can say that we do SD and grappling once a week and slowly it's starting to sink in. If nothing else, I'm a lot more open minded towards the JJ type of MA now than I was a few years ago. When the day comes that I either have to move to a different school (I will be relocating sometime in the future) and I get more proficient in TKD, I think I will try Judo or JJJ. I will not give up TKD though.

    We also spend a lot of time doing classic boxing hand drills. At the BB level, we are expected to learn our forms mostly on our own, we may do forms once every 2 or 3 weeks. But we are expected to know our forms and the standards for performance is high.

  18. spacepimp

    spacepimp Valued Member

    self defense

    So many choices so little time, a few of the things that could be done are:

    Do a double inside outside block (hey that's what we call it). With your hands there, grab the persons head and introduce them to your knee useful if they were going for a headbut anyways.

    My general favorite is to sweep with my arm over both opf the attackers arms, locking both arms with my left hand elbowing with my right and good sidekick.

    If all else fails grap your favorite finger and bend it back until you get the attacker on the floor.

    I am not sure if all if this is traditional Tae Kwon Do, as we mix Hosin Sul up in our self defence work.
  19. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Like I said that 2 handed lapel grab I find as unrealistic. We only train in releasing from that grab to train body mechanics... especially for women to use your body weight to escape from such holds.... and although to you seems complex, it really is not and done quite quickly and effortlessly when learned.
  20. stratiotes

    stratiotes Valued Member

    Once you know concepts, and get used to how things work, you can really make up stuff to do. We've done some joint-lock and self defense techniques in TKD class, but not enough to cover every attack. I haven't learned any escapes from a headlock. Yesterday my brother got me in a headlock under his left arm, and it almost seemed like instinct to just put my knee into the back of his, caving his leg in, while also pulling on his shoulder to bring him off balance. He released his lock to try to keep his balance.

    I'm sure there are better ways, but my point is, once your mind thinks the right way for self defense, you can think of things to do rather you know specific techniques or not. Knowing them is always better though i suppose.

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