self defence or sport

Discussion in 'Judo' started by dawgofwar71, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah...I did say I'd want more control over the arm.
    I'm just not a big fan of stepping over people you've just put on the deck.
    They are to liable to grab you and get you down there with them. :)
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Then you just poke them in the eye or hold them down with a pinky... works every time in training.
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    You expect us to get our Pinky out in the middle of the fight? Admittedly over here the average man probably has the size and weight to do the job, but fashion means that many of us are wearing button flies. :D
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

  5. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    The sim days look like a good training tool.

    With going back to the topic of judo and takedowns, in judo the idea is to execute the throw when your opponent is off balance. Sometimes you put them off balance with a push, pull or initial attack. Othertimes your opponent off balances themself and you take the initiative (debana) and throw them. This is the primary teaching of Jigoro Kano (founder of judo), Seiryoku Zenyou - maximum efficient use of energy.

    In a fight I agree that most of what happens is reactive. Your sim days will help condition an effective instinctive response. I must add that Judoka do randori every session against uncompliant opponents. This means that their reactive response is to swiftly and easily throw their opponent in a grappling situation.
  6. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Having done competitive grappling (Judo and BJJ) my whole life I can tell you that standing lock techniques like that are much much harder than they look to apply against a 100% none compliant opponent. So much so that there are 101 things I would learn first before devoting my attention to them.
  7. Spirit Warrior

    Spirit Warrior Valued Member

    It all depends on the reasons why you are training: Judo was developed as an adaptation of jujitsu and jujitsu is a Samurai art that has been used for centuries in real life combat; I no a few jujitsu guys who are very good fighters. But Judo has also become an olympic sport and some people train in it as a sport and obviously if you're training for a game you're not training for real life.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yet you will as often as not have a skillset in excess of someone who does
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well that again depends on who you're fightng. I don't expect to get that position on any of the purple belts at my school any time soon, but I imagine against somebody who doesn't know how to fight, it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibilty.

    EDIT: It's also a position we get in. kali
  10. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    I agree that such techniques can work against unskilled opponents. However, my personal opinion is why learn fiddly moves when there are many more high percentage reliable techniques that will work even if the opponent is highly skilled. Granted I have learned a variety of low % techniques myself. I studied aikido to dan rank and there were plenty on low % techniques taught there. However, this didn't bother me as I already had a 2nd dan in judo earned competively prior to starting aikido. One other relevant personal opinion of mine is that street fights and other serious situations are generally rare and can be avoided so there is also merit in studying martial arts for fun, sport, fitness and an interest in esoteric aspects. Hence I am a fan of the combat sports but still dabble in other arts too. I did iaido and kendo for a while. These are martial arts with little practical application in modern society but they do provide other benefits.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  11. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    And the guys that do train in it for sport are some of the fittest, strongest combat athletes you'll come across in the world. Their ability to grapple in a dynamic situation will far exceed anything you will find in the majority of jujutsu schools out there.
  12. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Agreed. Take a former Judo Olympian and and match them against a Super Soke Jujitsu master and see whether the sport / street arguement holds up.
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Straw man. Take a coach for one and match them up against a coach for the other would be closer. Even that is silly since one may always have been a great teacher but not necessarily a great fighter, furthermore how do you match them? They train and narrow their expertise against different things in different environments. There may be common ground but physically and psychologically there is a huge difference between a consensual fight and a non consensual unpredicted and unsolicited fight.
  14. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Actually, Sylvia's forearm broke in this fight, rather than the joint. Not something you could do without wearing a steel cup/being a 250 pound man-beast like Mir.

    P.S. Wasn't meaning to seem overly critical of the sim day stuff, I think it looks like a lot of fun and quite instructive. Though, like Bomber, for my desk-job-having self the cost-benefit ratio of training primarily for self-defense/protection/street-fighting doesn't really work out.

    De-escalation , avoidance and all that aside, I think "if they got in a fight, who would win" is a valid question. If I was going to fight "for real" any of the top-level sport grapplers I've trained with I'd want at least two guns, three friends and probably close air-support.
    The few times I've been suddenly, unexpectedly in a fight I've found it in some senses a lot easier than competition. I get horrendous nerves before I get on the mat, but when I've been jumped my body reacted more or less by itself and the adrenaline dump was mostly afterwards.
  15. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    I said former Olympian because in my example the person is now retired from competing having reached the pinnicle of their sport. Matching such a person against a soke who reached the pinnacle of their non competitive style would to me be a fair comparison.

    In my opinion the retired the ex Olympican who merely practised a sport would more than likely crucify anyone who had never trained without resistance. This isn't to say Judo is the be all and end all. Pre-emptive striking is very important, especially against multiple aggressors. However, you can teach a judoka to throw a decent pre-emptive punch or elbow within a few classes. Teaching a striker to grapple can take years.
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Soke doesn't necessarily mean they are the top, skill wise, of their art.

    Some don't even practice the arts they are Soke of but then I'm talking about the real ones as opposed to the ones who slap a title on themselves and don't actually understand what it means.
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I don't disagree with any of these points and although I'd shorten the time taken to achieve basic proficiency in grappling I'd agree that you can achieve comparative effective striking proficiency much quicker.
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's a horses for courses thing though. Although people might start a martial art for self defence, just like they might start because they like the look of the competitions, ultimately they stick with it because they enjoy what they're doing. I'm very unlikely to get into a fight, but I train the way I train with self protection as a primary goal for training effectiveness because that's what I enjoy doing. :) If I had a bit more time and money I'd be backing up my ground game with Ne waza at the Judo Centre for fun.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I started martial arts for self defence, got side tracked into competition when I found I could kick people in the head, then onto training to be a "well rounded fighter" and now just trying to stay active and enjoying my training as I slip mercilessly into middle age and decrepitude. :)
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You mean his radial head :rolleyes: Radial head actually breaks pretty easily, like I say it's just initially not very painful or disabling.

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