self defence or sport

Discussion in 'Judo' started by dawgofwar71, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    On a serious note it's hip pressure rather than weight that forces him down (although a bit of extra mass doesn't hurt with that).
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Are we still talking about the same training scenario? His balance was already gone and he was bent double - there was no way he was going to stay up!
     
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I'd say he had plenty of out's he just needed to get his hips under him and get away from my hips. Anyway, that's beside the point. I consciously drove him down with hip pressure, which is why he ends up on the floor in a nice discrete package with me in a good G'n'P side control.
     
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Actually watching it again the wall does make it hard for him to recover and I could have probably just stuffed his head to the floor, but that doesn't change what I actually did.
     
  5. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Anyway, I appear to have been a bit generally argumentative yesterday (felt off all day), don't really have that much appetite for arguing small points with people I respect.
    I agree that striking resolutions seem to be the primary outcome in the scenarios. It should also be borne in mind that in battlefield grappling arts the aim is often to disarm your opponent or bring your own weapon into play, rather than the grapple being an aim in and of itself.
     
  6. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I think we're using a different definition of "throw" or "takedown" here, I wasn't talking about people flipping cleanly over the hip (which I agree, "Traditional" Jiu Jitsu aside, isn't a primary option in fighting unless you're extremely highly trained), but people muscling, tripping or otherwise bringing their opponent to the floor other than by dropping them with strikes. That includes "weightlifters" picking people up and dropping them, which can be done against a pretty large weight and strength differential if you know how to wrestle.
     
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Yes, definitely cross purposes.
     
  8. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtcb5sVtxxQ"]BEAUTIFUL JUDO THROW IN A STREET FIGHT!!! - YouTube[/ame]
    While this isn't a demonstration of self defence I think it might be worth reflecting on the fact that jwt seems to run his Sim Days as scenarios taking place "Indoors" with lots of people around (which to be fair is probably statistically justified).
     
  9. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's a fair point, though at least 1/4 of the time the scenarios are 'outdoors'.

    Most martial artists already train for environments where there is plenty of space so it makes sense for the majority of the time they spend with me to be in the different environment of having little room for manouvre. In the open spaces it's a lot easier to successfully break away.
     

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  10. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    No offence taken. :)

    I think we sometimes make it too easy to split into grappling v striking camps. I can show you the same move in a Karate Kata and demonstrate a viable striking application of it and an alternative viable grappling application. We strike so we can grapple and we grapple so we can strike, to do one without the other is generally unrealistic against an uncooperative person except in carefully structured sparring rulesets, and both are merely means to an end.
     
  11. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    As people were saying it's only friend of a friend stories
    Throws I've used for real
    Osoto Gari (works almost too well)
    Harai Goshi
    Uchi Mata (didn't work too well)
    Double leg

    I've also done multiple straight and bent arm locks to the floor.
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    For those of us who don't use Japanese terms, or use (different) karate terms for almost identical throws, could you post an example of each? :Angel:
     
  13. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjfBnTMn1c"]O Soto Gari (Instruction) - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gzk4M3OA0U"]Harai Goshi - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis"]Uchi Mata - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjfBnTMn1c"]O Soto Gari (Instruction) - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gzk4M3OA0U"]Harai Goshi - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis"]Uchi Mata - YouTube[/ame]
     
  15. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

  16. junx33

    junx33 Valued Member

    Hey guys and girls. I'm new to the site, but am loving it so far. I love reading great stories, especially martial arts related so I'm wondering if any of you would like to share some in-depth experiences of how your Judo or grappling helped (or didn't) in a real fight. Now I know some of you have posted a couple of sentences, but I'd like to hear some good story telling! The setting (street corner, bar, house), how it started, why it started, move for move you and the other person exchanged, how it ended and what you did after (stayed around for a beer, went home, got kicked out, ran away, whatever). I mean some real elaboration, Stephen King/Hemingway/F. Scott Fitzgerald-it up!

    Also, as I'm not hip to the standards and practices here, if this should be a whole separate thread please let me know. Thanks.
     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That should really be a new thread. I suggest you start a 'Using Judo in self defence' thread in the SD forum.
     
  18. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Watching a few of your videos, I'm seeing a lot of things I'd call tani-otoshi:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2HGqT7fnAQ"]Tani Otoshi - YouTube[/ame]

    and a lot of front headlocks:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzjC36jL08"]Mike Pucillo - Front Headlock - YouTube[/ame]

    I'm also seeing, frankly, a lot of people who would really really benefit from some freestyle wrestling training. To help with their base and balance as much as the actual techniques.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter


    I think the tani otoshi in the sim days are more instances of people overbalancing rather than deliberate take downs. Some of the people who've done them might disagree, but generally speaking a huge amount of what is done in the training is reactive, confused and desperate rather than deliberate and the participants often rewrite their memories as they go along. We've had a person swear they preempted against an aggressive opponent only for the video to show the guy leaning away from them.

    Much to the consternation of some of the participants I call a halt whenever I see a front headlock. Given the other dynamics involved which can take control of pressure on the spine away from the holder (other people pushing, pulling and striking either participant) I'm not prepared to take the risk to the spine. That's an approach that neither Sifu Ben nor (I think) Late for Dinner like, but while I teach defences to such positions I don't teach those controls since I teach restraint professionally. In my classes we do some dynamic exercises to work the defences, but strictly in one on one.

    The majority of the participants in the videos above aren't my students, they are students coming to experience this form of training from other backgrounds. Added to that ones that I have expressly given aggressor roles are role playing rather than sparring. For better or for worse, the clips below are of my students, some of whom haven't trained for months before the training days (university or work shifts). I've placed them in chronological order so you can see how each student develops (ie first sim, second sim). I can see times where they've not kept their balance, or gone for the balance, or used an appropriate control - but that's why we do these days and video them -so we can coach and adjust training as appropriate. :) This video features a few mappers as bystanders or attackers.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1q-xMSyIIo"]DART Students Scenario Training Medley - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Why's that? Danger to the spine or a particular legal/policy issue?

    I don't agree that it's particularly risky, especially compared to punching someone in the face or kicking them in the head, but that's pretty difficult to argue about in the abstract.
    Sorry, not totally clear on the setup, but does that mean one guy is "uke" and fighting below their actual abilities?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013

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