self defence or sport

Discussion in 'Judo' started by dawgofwar71, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    But that's just it. These stories always seem to be a friend of a friend and there's no way to tell just how serious the altercations were. I rarely see these skills on CCTV so I'd say there's a mixture here of exaggeration of things that did happen, Judoka not using their skill set under pressure but resorting to shoving and haymakers (just like good people from other arts), and Judoka being too sensible to participate in these rare events in the first place.

    Not necessarily. Both are instances of using force and a throw is no more gentle than a strike. In many ways a hit to the head can be safer than hitting your head on the pavement. Generally speaking hitting the deck with your head is dangerous.
  2. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    I managed a nice sweep in a self defense situation 2 weekends ago, admittedly he was drunk, hit me a few times in the back of the head and then got me in a headlock, from which i was easily able to sweep him and control him on the floor until one of the venues doormen came to take care of him (they later offered me a job)

    but the difference there is he made the mistake of grappling me, it wasn't against a pure striking attack...
  3. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    I don't quite get what you're saying here? You don't think it's high-percentage to throw or take people down while they try to hit you? There's quite a lot of MMA fights I could post that demonstrate rather the opposite, but I think I must be misunderstanding you.

    The gym I train out puts out pro MMA fighters, so it's pretty usual to have this ability. I have used it a couple of times in "street" fights as well.

    I agree that being blase about the ability to do something you haven't trained isn't wise. However, closing to the clinch or shooting under your opponent's jab is pretty easy to learn at a basic level.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  4. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    I've used Judo to throw people trying to punch me as follows:

    1. Real situations in teens/early 20's (easiest).
    2. Sport jujitsu matches (mild resistance offered but still fairly easy)
    3. At our judo club occassionally we have sessions where one person puts on gloves and the other a gum shield and we pratice these strategies. (the hardest as then opponents are experienced judoka)
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'm saying it doesn't seem to be high percentage in the days I run for visiting people. There could be a number of factors skewing this:
    1. Lack of decent grapplers/throwers and too many strikers trying the training.
    2. Lack of unbalancing space due to walls and other people.
    3. Lack of viability due to the number of people engaged in the fight.
    4. Lack of viability against a fully committed (ie non tactical) assault by one or more people.

    The fighting dynamic overall in such days is very different to any of the MMA fights I have seen and closer to what I've experienced outside the gym or on CCTV, but that's to be expected - they are different environments.
  6. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    How many of your friends are judoka? If the answer is not many then this will explain why the stories always come from friends of friends. :)
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  7. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    People get taken down all the time in street fights though, the average person has no base at all.

    Do you have video of the kind of thing you're talking about? Even if the space is so crowded that people hit someone or something else before making it to the floor you can still use wrestling/Judo control and escapes from the clinch. And if it's that crowded I'd certainly expect un-trained grapplers to lock up and sooner or later manage to fall over anyway.

    What tactics do you find people successfully use when jumped by multiples in an extremely crowded space, if that's what your talking about? Aren't any of the numerically superior faction tackling the guy so that their mates can put the boot in?

    Presumably if people are sometimes sweeping each other they are ending up on the floor, somehow?

    P.S. That's a lot of questions, sorry! I'm just surprised because fights between untrained people so very often involve (rubbish) take-downs and throws in my experience, even more so when you've got a melee situation and they have the opportunity to blind-side each other with the mighty playground headlock.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  8. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    It's great that you run these days. I'm sure it is useful for people.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You're suffering from selective memory a little. I've just watched video evidence of Southpaw and Llama doing double legs, and I know I've done throws and takedowns there. The rules on neck manipulation hamper effective throwing IMHO.
  10. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i think no matter what you do, you should pressure-test. it just so happens that "sport" arts have more pressure-testing built in than say ninjutsu. but it's not like you can't pressure test hapkido or ninjutsu, for instance. pressure and having a good all-around game is what will give you the tools and/or attributes, no? i do bjj, but i also box some hoping to get a decent striking game.
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    oh also, staying in good shape will also help. i run a lot, hoping to implement my super secret "catch me if you can" technique.
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Do they? It's not something I've observed and I've observed quite a lot. I've seen people falling over after stumbling back. I've seen people go down from hits. I've seen people pushed down. I've almost never seen anyone thrown. Most of the idea that people have about fights going to the ground seem to stem from that old LAPD statistic which is frequently quoted out of context, as it was the percentage of arrests going to the ground where the suspect resisted cuffing.

    Please note, I'm not posting as anti Judo here, at least not deliberately. I think stand up grappling skills are essential. I'm not convinced though that throwing per se is a high percentile technique in the sorts of situations I'm training for. I still teach Aikido style throws/unbalancing but I ditched all the hip throws from my syllabus as we just never seemed to find the right scenario for them. Of the visitors I've had over for the Sim Days I've had some good throwers and wrestlers in the 'strikers' mix and they also seemed to stick with the striking repertoire.

    I agree you can definitely use wrestling/control etc, I'm saying that throws seem to be a low percentage movement when fists are flying in this sort of context.

    I asked for Smurf's perspective as he is a good Ju Jitsu instructor and has done the Sim Days as well as having a professional background linked to managing violent situations. As such he is well placed to say how realistic the training was, and why he didn't throw. It may be the bulkiness of the chest guards is inhibiting for example.


    Basic acclimatisation:
    [ame=""]Car Park Fight Training: Sim Day 6 Acclimatisation - YouTube[/ame]

    Training Scenarios:
    [ame=""]Bar Fight Scenario 2: Sim Day 4 - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Bar Fight Training Sim Day 6 Scenario 4 - YouTube[/ame]

    Generally I'm not seeing many tackles (in training or in CCTV), but that's hardly surprising. In the USA the tackle seems to be a very common HAOV, in the UK and Europe it's not. You can almost swap the role of the headbutt between Europe and the USA. Haymakers, push haymakers, grab haymakers and windmilling are far more common.

    Successful strategies? Keep moving and keep hitting. Where possible drive one person into another and use numbers as shields. Run as soon as you can.
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Post the link Ben.

    I've seen trips and slips and shoves. I don't recall any proper deliberate sweeps. I've seen weightlifters pick up and drop people. I also don't recall any proper hip throws.

    With regard to neck manipulation, it depends on what proportion of your throwing repertoire is neck related. Those rules are there with good reason. If we were one on one I'd relax them, but in a melee I don't feel that it's safe to do so.
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I don't have any issue with it (beyond the fact that it's difficult for me to fight Sampsi without grabbing his neck due to our relative sizes), it's just that there will always be an effect.
    You've already posted the video ;)
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  15. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    To clarify, in the first video Southpaw does Morote Gari and Llama does a head outside double (although you can argue as to how intentional that was)
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Ben

    Do you mean the top one of my videos above?

    Southpaw does a double leg on Chris while Chris is attacking at medium speed after Chris had already ended that fight (but we kept it running for training purposes). Not repeated in the normal speed acclimatisation.

    Cosmic falls over while holding Southpaw in an arm lock.

    Llama tackles George in the medium speed after taking a low power slow shot to the head (incidentally that was Shotokan v Shotokan with Llama bringing his rugby into play). Llama subsequently (still medium) tries for a sweep which fails, but George overbalances afterwards and they both go to the ground. Tactic not repeated in the fast training.

    I don't think my memory is selective at all. These things aren't happening effectively in the fast scenarios we're running.
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    True, I remembered seeing them, not what speed they'd occured at. In scenario 3 I do a head and arm throw on Sampsi. Not a great one, but I had just been punched really hard in the face and was mindful that you'd tell me off if I hauled on his neck.
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Ah you see that just looked like you using your extra 15kg or so to push him down in the slow mo rather than a throw per se. Plus Gary did rather steal that scene. :)
  19. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    LOL, no I mean on another video
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Sorry. :evil:

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