School loyalty

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by mmafiter, Jun 17, 2002.

  1. mmafiter

    mmafiter New Member

    I've often wondered why clubs demand seemingly undying loyalty to thier art. It would seem to me that if you really cared for your students growth and success in martial arts, you would encourage them to persue other avenues of study that interest them.

    I recently had one student who trained at a local kickboxing club for about 10 years. He joined our club last year to augment his training and has been enjoying the contrast. Recently, his kickboxing instructor came up to him and stated "You better quit doing that grappling crap, and concentrate on kickboxing." Needless to say, this guy was devestated. He then informed his instructor that he would be leaving the kickboxing school and joining my school full time. He told me he enjoys the freedom at our school and the fact that we don't try to control him. He came to realize that we just train together for it's own sake and if you want to go somewhere else to learn something, that's fine with us.;)

    Ironically, I find by letting my students train wherever they want to and at times helping them in thier studies by suggesting alternative instructors, my students become even more loyal to our school. I've had ex students train at other school's for a time only to return at a later date, saying that they always thought about our school and when the time was right, they knew they would return.:cool:
     
  2. DrunkenMantis

    DrunkenMantis New Member

    Interesting... I can somewhat relate. My branch of Eagle Claw demands pretty much complete loyalty, but circumstances seem to mitigate this. We aren't really a 'school' as such (we train in various rooms around Purdue), and one of our instructors teaches Eagle Claw as well as Long Fist and Wushu. We often debate the merits of being totally devoted to one system as opposed to having a broader experience. As long as cross training is kept from our higher-ups... it's OK. I am currently also training at a Seven Star Praying Mantis school in town for summer, and they really see nothing wrong with cross-training. It really just depends on how traditional the school is, etc etc. If you want to see a good example of the benefits of cross-training... www.purdue.edu/fightersunited
     
  3. Mrs Owt

    Mrs Owt New Member

    I guess I am incredibly lucky where I train. My karate sensei's actively encourage us to cross-train and bring in other instructors on a regular basis. My BJJ coach thinks it is great we work on our stand up and my aikido sensei is always bugging us to teach him what we are learning in BJJ!

    I haven't really encountered "dojo"loyalty, it was more issues with TMA bashing by people who had problems with it. Again, each to his own, just don't tell me how to train! :D
     
  4. DrunkenMantis

    DrunkenMantis New Member

    For some reason this makes me think of McDojos (Which has become one of my favorite words as of late - all my training buddies love it :))... it seems like it could also be a contractual thing... "train with us and only us for a year..." etc etc etc. Personally I can see the value of cross training - Eagle Claw and Praying Mantis even use one of the same forms (Bung Bo) at the intermediate level, and many of the moves and postures are at least somewhat similar. I think it's interesting to cross train in two styles with some similarities but with many unique ideas so that you can see the benefits of both and use them interchangably.

    One thing I have issue with, though, is what I see as a new trend towards people creating "personal styles." It's an awfully audacious thing to do, especially for some of the younger people I've seen do it. Even for Bruce Lee, he studied literally hundreds of martial arts, but trained in only one. He had the audacity to create something from thousands of years of experience in martial arts into something that's endured since its creation. I think what happens is that too often someone will take their 'favorite' parts of a few styles and make a hodgepodge of them. Are these 'favorite' parts in fact the most effective parts of their respective systems? How much thought went into their selection? Personally, I think it's much more effective to learn and practice multiple systems but not throw away anything you learn. Otherwise, what is the point of learning? I will always say that I pratice Eagle Claw and Praying Mantis separately, but eventually hope to use them interchangeably without thought, not mishmashed into some personal thing. No offense to anyone who has a personal style, just my views...
     
  5. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    No martial art remains intact from thousands of years ago except one.

    Doing what works for you based on the restrictions and conditions you plan to fight under.

    Nothing ever advances if no one ever changes.

    AS for the question. It is a trait of "traditional" schools wishing to preserve a specific stylistic technique. or it is a case of I want all your ma money and don't want you to go find something better.

    After all how can the tradition remain intact when people are going off and mixing it with other traditions?
     
  6. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    Eagle, the reason your Praying Mantis school is so cool with cross-training is that eveyone in there has studied multiple styles, some for a very long time. :D We're not all wrapped around the axle on the "ONE TRUE WAY."

    Besides, we're really just a bunch of martial arts geeks and think it's all great!

    mmafiter, never experienced that attitude before. Must get in with the right crowds. :love:
     
  7. DrunkenMantis

    DrunkenMantis New Member

    How can I possibly argue with that? :cool:
     
  8. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Although I have a hell of a lot of time for my instructor, one thing that does annoy me about him is that he doesn't like people doing other martial arts at the same time as they're doing tang sou dao. I think this is a bit unfair really because we all pay our fees and it's not like a legal contract that we have to only go to his lesson.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I wholeheartedly agree with this.... it is for this reason I love the school I am at now (and I have left it for training at other schools... always with the instructor's blessing and always with a great welcome back). I truly believe that if you let your students go out and train with whomever they want... they will appreciate the freedom, become better martial artists and come home and share. Nice post
     
  10. paulol

    paulol Valued Member

    mmafiter,

    A school who has an open door policy, is one that trains in the real world. So I can only commend you the highest order on your approach.

    Why do some schools have a closed mind to other MA's? Because they are afraid...

    1. ... that the student will see a better presented MA than their one.
    2. ... that the student will bring others from the school to the new art and..
    3. ... loose them money due to loss of numbers.

    If that is the approach that is taken by an instructor then it will only be counter productive. That a student is looking to cross train means that they are serious about the MA's. Be it that they think the MA is short holes in it, or just a big drive to learn more. They are thinking about it, which I would personally feel happy about. :D
     
  11. acrawford

    acrawford Ki-Ken-Tai no Ichi

    I do not understand why anyone would want to restrict their students, other than they are afraid of losing them.

    We actually go as a group(including sensei) to other schools and systems to train. We also have guest instructers from other schools come and give lessons.

    My instructors reason for this is, quite simple. How will you know about it if you do not go and try it.
     
  12. ahkyte

    ahkyte Tang Sou Dao

    TST,

    Interesting... I over heard a conversation at Rochford the other week, whereby it seemed the instructor had no problem with cross training... In this case grappling. He only mentioned to be careful not to confuse styles.... Having said belonging to the same school as you I know what you mean about loyalty... Its on one of the seven principles of Tang Sou Dao that we have to learn !......

    Alan
     
  13. Hui Lai

    Hui Lai In the end, just pretend

    Are we missing something?

    Guys, what about the fact that schools teach differently. Sometimes they conflict with each other.

    Also, some people are all over the place. Everyone wants everything all the time. Always instant gratification. What about patience and loyalty.

    Everyone thinks that if they have to be exclusive to one place they are being controlled. If there is a restriction on they way they train it's controlling. What has happened to martial arts? Now it seems a bit crazy or controlling that a teacher would want a student to be loyal to his/her school?

    Someone is always talking about being traditional this or traditional that. You don't go studying with a 'traditional' master and then turn around and study with someone else at the same time. That's absolute disrespect. It's not controlling, it's pure loyalty.

    I do understand that schools fear their students will leave, they will take students to other schools, they do mix martial arts, but that's how it is all the time regardless. So to say that's a reason for the 'closed-door policy' is untrue.

    Now, I see the benefits of cross-training and the bottom line is that if you have a well-rounded style(granted some do not) you get a bit of mixed(or cross) training.

    Hui
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2004
  14. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    You know, I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately.
    I started out doing Taekwon-Do, and I was happy. I was told I'd learn all I ever needed to know if I stuck with tkd, and I believed them. Then I was jumped on the street...

    My arsenal consisted of a few high kicks, a guard that helped me against attacs "above the belt" and I also knew the straight punch. Not much good it did me!! I was in luck though, as I was sober and they (there were 2 of them!) were both drunk and on downers(!) and also the street had a thin layer of ice on it so they had trouble standing.


    In my humble oppinion: If you want to compete and win, you should stick to one art. Train like hell, and you might come far! But, if you want to survive on the street, or if your work takes you to the shadier places of town, you should use what is useful and ditch the rest. Crosstrain for the streets.
     
  15. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I disagree, crosstraining comes in handing at the biggener level but, in my oppinion, not necessary if you can survive confrontation untill you become more knowledgable in your art.
     
  16. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -As a master instructor of a MMA system, I definitely see the value in cross training. However, it has been my experience that most martial arts, if trained in their combat (non-sport) context are pretty much complete for the street. They are also pretty much the same if viewed from this context, as well. The main difference is strategic rather than technical. The problem is that so few instructors teach the complete art and put a high level of emphasis on pracical application for combat and self defense. Many teach or emphasise what THEY like in the art or what wins in sport and virtually ignore the rest.
    -There are many TKD black belts who are unaware that there are tons of grappliing techniques, throws and takedowns, and joint manipulations (along with pressure points) that are just as much a part of their system as kicking and punching (some are only semi-aware of the punching aspect). There are many judo or aikido black belts that are unaware that punching and kicking are an integral part of their arts. Why? Because in their own training, they have been rarely, if ever introduced to these aspects of their art. Even their instructors may have not been exposed to this; the breakdown may have occured generations ago within their organization.
    -I think it's of great value to be able to cross train, not because your own art is lacking (though in some cases the instruction of it may be lacking), but to get a deeper understanding of the tactics and strategy that someone who specializes in other areas will work from. The more systems I've trained in, the more similarities I see. The more the dots connect themselves. It really is true; we often don't see the forrest for the trees.
    -I've been fortunate that my instructor for the past 27 years (the first two I trained with went out of business and quit teaching) always encouraged us to grow and expand. In fact, he forced and continues to force us to. He works with the best people available to him (and as a BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME instructor, he has good resources) and brings it, or when practical, them back to us. He also encourages us (his senior students/instructors) to venture out and, if we find something of common value, to bring it back and share with the others.
    -IMO, we live in the greatest time ever to be a martial artist. The walls have fallen. The knowledge is out there for those who are willing to work and to share it. In the old days, if you lived in Japan, you could train in jujitsu, judo or aikido. If you lived in Okinawa, you trained in ryukyu kempo or kara-te. If you were in Korea, you had available to you TKD or tang soo do. If you had the restricted access to it, maybe you could learn hapkido. In the USA, we are lucky enough to be a melting pot where all these systems are available to us and more . The same hold true for parts of Europe. To me, it's not about revolution, but evolution.
    -Finally (even for me this post is long-winded), to me loyalty to one's school and instuctor is extremely important. I take the concept the Japanese call giri (duty and obligation) very seriously and it is a major part of my character and who I am. I just don't consider training with other instructor's in any violation of this. As long as it is done above board in an honorable fashion.
     
  17. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    I think if you have your sensei/sifu's permission to train in other art it should violate your duty to your school, however I would see why someone would get a bit annoyed if you have been training with him for a long time and dont let him know of your other training.
     
  18. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    For a beginner, who has no martial art experience, cross training is a definite no-no. Simply because confusion will ensue, and the student will not be able to concentrate entirely on one technique to master, he wil be learning it in a controlled MA environment.
    After 1-2 years, then a bit of cross training helps definitely. Lets you learn where your MA boundaries are, and where you need to improve.
    In general, once you have become good at the basics in your art, then consider cross training, simply because you have a grounding to work from, rather than guesswork to adapt to what you think you know.

    Loyalty to a kwoon/dojo/dojang is there as long as you want it to be. If you respect your teacher, then it will never be a problem. If you don't respect him, (in the way that you disagree with his teachings/views on teaching you) speak to him/her about it and sort it out. Sometimes a teacher has your best interests at heart, and the student doesn't have enough experience to see where the teacher is coming from.
     
  19. Hui Lai

    Hui Lai In the end, just pretend

    Good points all around.
     
  20. paulol

    paulol Valued Member

    I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience with using TKD on the street. But please don't think the art is not just as good as any other for the street. Check out the TKD fourm and look up the SD threads. :D
     

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