Savate

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Taoquan, Aug 11, 2007.

  1. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Okay,
    Rather than doing thread necro for the History channel show and since my question has little to do with the show I thought I would post new.

    Anyways, I just saw the history channels "Human weapon" on savate and then I had some questions about savate, hoping someone here practices.

    1) It did not appear that the kicks had that much power at first. They were not like you would see with a fuller rotation of the hip (not saying anything bad about the art!!!) I was just curious it seemed like the kicks were more of a smaller rotation and had more of a "snap" to them. Is this the case?

    2) Along the same line of the kicks, with all the movement they do in Savate, do they kick mostly with a rotation on the front ball of the foot? Some I saw did this others did not, is this just personal preference?

    3) It seemed most of the punching was similar to western boxing, but with the focus more on moving to the side of the opponent, is this also the case?

    I am interested in this art as this was the first I saw or even heard of it. Does anyone here practice?
     
  2. BlindClown

    BlindClown tinit

  3. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    we did learn something about savate in jkd class yet the material was only covered breifly. the kicks were not of the use hip rotation and chambering variety. the kicks seem to have more of speed and accuracy in mind as opposed to power.

    the punching skills for the most part were like western boxing with the exeption that evasion appeared more favorable than solid blocking. and we did sidestep a great deal before delivering kicks or punches. the knee strikes did not seem impressive often being thrown from the lead and lacking good power from hip rotation.

    there was some talk about the differences between sport and 'martial' styles of savate. the latter was supposed to emphasise some level of grappling and cane fighting techniques. hopefully there are savate practioners here on map that can elaborate further and clear up any misconceptions that i have not by intention given.
     
  4. Emil

    Emil Valued Member

    Comments in red.

    A good website for learning about Savate is http://www.savateaustralia.com/. In addition, keep your eye on the articles section, as I plan to write an article on it at some point in the future.

    Em
     
  5. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Fantastic! Thank you all for your help. It looks like a very interesting art, I was thinking it would have to get put on my "someday list" boy that list is growing :D
     
  6. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    There was, in both directions. Many Apache street fighters were skilled savateurs and when savate (and then jujitsu) began to be marketed to the Parisian middle classes during the late 1800s, both arts were promoted as a defense against being mugged by an Apache.

    Bear in mind the extreme class distinctions found throughout Europe around the turn of the 20th century. Savate was actually an early example of a skill associated mostly with the lower classes and urban criminal classes being "cleaned up" and offered to educated, law-abiding folk.

    The best self defense book written in France during this period, Jean-Joseph Renaud's Defense dans la Rue (Self Defence in the Street), includes a whole chapter on defending against specific Apache mugging tricks such as the coup de pere Francois and the coup de chapeau.
     
  7. BlindClown

    BlindClown tinit

    As is mine!

    Theres not enough hours in the day, days in the week , weeks in the month , months in the year for the amount of intresting martial arts out there, there is to study!

    I wish someone would combine all the arts i wanna take into one , save me alot of time and effort :)

    :Angel:
     
  8. Emil

    Emil Valued Member

    Ah I thought it was osmething like that.

    Yes, i own a copy of the manual. Very interesting read.

    Em
     
  9. Tommy-2guns...

    Tommy-2guns... southpaw glassjaw

    Its a shame that many of savate's open handed attacks dont survive in the modern sport,although the savateur that got beaten did fall short against the british pugilist, this could have been much to do with the pugilist just being better than the savate practioner and not an indication of the effectiveness original hand techniques and i for one would like to see there return to the art to perhaps seperate it from the generic kickboxing it now is.

    Its a shame also that many do not stick to the tradional hand held behind when kicking posture,as such savate today looks too much like any old kickboxing than an art of its own identity.
     
  10. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Ummmm,
    I was going to isolate this down to a simple question, but do you mind just elaborating??? What are the original hand techs? and I can understand the hand behind the back while kicking, but why? I mean is it effective more for balance (b/c what I saw there did to see some balance issues) or is it (in your own mind) just a way to distinguish Savate? Thanks again
     
  11. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Yeah but Hsing I, Tai Chi, BJJ, Savate, Muay Thai and Capoeira would look like a really odd combination! :D
     
  12. Tommy-2guns...

    Tommy-2guns... southpaw glassjaw

    Well i am led to beleive that Savate hand techniques originally consisted of open handed slaps,chops,palm strikes etc. until a match between a savate exponent and a Boxer, in which the boxer was victorious and thus boxing was incorperated, of course i dont beleive it was as simple as that but thats the story anyhow.so yeah id love to see a bringing back of the original intended hand techniques,but i guess that would be difficult in Savate the sport without loosing the gloves.

    As for the hand position while kicking question, well i suppose it does give balance and must have led to some good purpose or it would not have been used in the first instance,and yes i beleive it should be there, if we view savate now, it is really, just kickboxing,more ranged that most styles of kickboxing, but it comes across as standard kickboxing and lacks identity i feel as an Art,of course i feel that arts should try and be effective first and foremost, but i still like to see something unique about an art im looking at, but thats just my odd way of looking at things :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2007
  13. andysparx

    andysparx Valued Member

    i was told that alot of traditional savate techniques were developed for fighting on the sailing ships of the time. so alto og the time, they would have their arms and hands to the side or the back, to grab onto the riggin of the ship. This was for support in the waves. It seems like a very interesting fighting form to me, and its a shame that there are so few schools in england to learn it.

    I wonder how similar the cane techniques were to the likes of eskrima and other stick fighting sports.?

    andy
     
  14. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    The arm extended behind the back was intended as a counter-balancing technique (as in the classical fencing lunge) and was more characteristic of academic (i.e., sport/art/exercise) savate than of the street fighting form. In 1914, Jean Joseph Renaud criticised this practice because it left the fighter open, especially to punches if the opponent stepped inside the kick.

    Here are a few examples of 1930s-1950s boxe Francaise drills and sparring, including the extended arm -

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bJ8x9_NMNM"]Count Pierre Baruzy SAVATE - French boxing - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZaNtm-5mCo"]OLD FRENCH BOXING SAVATE 29.03.1934 - YouTube[/ame]

    The earliest forms of savate canne (stick) fighting were very similar to sabre fencing and basically used the walking stick as a substitute for the sabre. Later reformers such as Pierre Vigny re-vamped the stick fighting aspect of the art to make it more directly applicable to non-sporting combat, including the use of double-handed bayonet style thrusts, throwing techniques, etc. None of it looks very much like eskrima, though.

    Here's some video footage of Craig Gemeiner (Australia) in action. He's one of the few modern savate instructors who teaches the old-school forms of street savate and canne fighting, especially the Vigny style.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqYeDCAO2Hg"]La canne Vigny - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkBN6dghGd4"]YouTube[/ame]
     
  15. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Amazing vids!!!!
    Man Savate looks like so much fun and go for the throat type of MA. No nonsense, Savate just got moved up on my to do list! :D

    Thanks devon and others!
     
  16. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    Nice Video's as well and thanks for posting them. :cool:
     
  17. Mikey Triangles

    Mikey Triangles Neo-Ninja

    The whole clog thing makes Savate seem a lot less ghey
     
  18. SteelyPhil

    SteelyPhil Messiah of Lovelamb


    TBH, what made it more impressive for me, was that savate fighter who carried on with 2 broken arms and won the fight. (Forgotten his name sorry), that truly impressed me.
     
  19. BlindClown

    BlindClown tinit

    aww , i didnt find them videos impressive , seemed to be effective against a none trained idiot but i dunno it just seemed like it was lacking in technique was basically rush in and hit where possible ..

    The stick fighting was skilled i must say

    i like to see MA with a bit style and technique , any one trained in any MA knows how to side step someone rushing at you with a full guard up. This seemed to be there main factor for getting in..

    Does anyone train in this art who could actually tell me otherwise , for instance does this MA have forms or a basic stance or theroys which it is based on ... :confused:

    I have read up on the history so dont need that reitterating to me.

    Not putting it down as im sure it is effective just not for me i guess.
     
  20. andysparx

    andysparx Valued Member

    i found this vid - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejU60qT1tY"]Muay Thai vs. SAVATE - YouTube[/ame]

    its a modern savate fighter against a muay thai figher. a good fight in my opinion.
     

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