Sam Tam demonstrating the form

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In wrestling, there is a strategy that you drag your opponent in circle.

    Here are 2 examples.

    [ame=""]tearing resist - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]tearing follow - YouTube[/ame]
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I believe the answer is "worse".

    The wrestling training tries to teach a wrestler to "act like a tiger and trying to eat his opponent alive". It's an aggressive approach which contradict to the Taiji conservative approach.

    A Taiji guy will never be able to develop this kind of aggressive attitude as showing in this clip.

  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Good examples, but these don't represent specialization in mobility.

    I'll see if I can find a video later to contrast with.
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    What's that a clip of, Shuai Jiao? If you're saying that Shuai Jiao has a more direct approach, then I think I agree at least as far as the training is more easily compared with wrestling, in the same way Judo or Jiujitsu.

    But why do you believe that about "Taiji Guys"? That sounds like a personal bias, no offense. Do you mean the average student who spends more time on (slow moving) form than applying (fast and furious) Then I'd agree. But did you see the Guoshu video? Those Tai Chi schools seem like they'd do just fine with aggressive attitudes, by the way, those same schools don't limit themselves to Push Hands, they put fighters on the Lei Tai platform as well, which is a pretty aggressive arena even wrestlers would struggle with.

    I'm not sure I agree with your perspective that Tai Ji is conservative or non-aggressive, and of course that's because I know and have seen Tai Chi competitors that are very aggressive, but in a controlled fashion (the way good wrestling should be, right?. Overly aggressive wrestlers gas out. It's the wrestlers that know when to be aggressive and when to conserve that become Olympic champs (watched decades of college and Olympic wrestling, and it was always the balanced types that did the best, in my opinion, not the overly aggressive or overly conservative....balance in all things is the Tai Ji way after all :D )
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I can only speak from my personal experience.

    - I have not met any Taiji guy who is aggressive.
    - I have not seen any clip that show a taiji guy who is aggressive.

    Since we are comparing Taiji and wrestling. In wrestling, it's better

    - to play offense and lose, than
    - to play defense and win.

    You can't be a good wrestler if you don't have the aggressive attitude.

    My teacher liked my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin a lot. When David wrestled, his face would turn into green color (a hulk?).

  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Mobility is important because it allows for the use of superior skills and tactics. If you lose your mobility (e.g., locking up with the opponent), the enemy's superior size and strength can more easily compensate for any superior skill you may have.

    Here are some examples of the importance of maintaining mobility:

    [ame=""]Kyuzo Mifune Demonstrating Judo - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Small Czech Sumo wrestler lights up his opponents one after the other. - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Chen Style Taijiquan vs Wrestling (Takedown Challenge) - YouTube[/ame]
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    May be "footwork" is a better term than "mobility". In wrestling, it's all about "footwork". If your feet can land on the right place during the right time, you will win.

    There are a set of "door open" moves that you give your opponent opportunity to move. Sometime you want him to move just one leg. Sometime you want him to move both legs. When your opponent moves, you either wait for him at the end of his moving, or you meet him half way.
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It's hard to know what's the goal of Taiji. Does a Taiji guy want to be a good striker, a good grappler, or both?

    If a Taiji guy wants to be a good

    - striker, some important kicks are missing (such as roundhouse kick, side kick, ...).
    - grappler, some important throws are missing (such as hip throw, leg lift, ...).

    What do you guys think about this concern?
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  9. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    It's interesting the choice of videos that you provided.

    I think that the video of the wrestler was not really representative of what wrestling is about. Perhaps this was a greco wrestler or something but it didnt match what I expected having wrestled myself. The tai chi guy wasn't maintaining mobility, really he was dealing with a bad wrestler.

    The sumo video showed what good timing could achieve but the in truth he was always limited because his timing by itself wasn't enough to allow him to progress through the ranks of sumo . Not bad at what he did but it did limit him to what he could achieve.

    Mifune was considered a judo god. He was one in a million and perhaps showed a talent that few possess. To call what he did ''mobility'' seems a bit limiting. He had a sense of timing and balance that was almost super human!

    I guess what I am saying is , what are you really trying to show in these vids? Mobility is important because it allows for the use of superior skills and tactics? Well within limited circumstances possibly. It seems there is more to things than simply mobility allowing you to carry out superior strategies...

  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think I may have confused you about my use of the term mobility because I didn't discuss it in terms of the principle: "Retain maximum mobility but use minimum movement."

    Think of retaining mobility in terms of retention of strength (physical and fighting spirit) until that instant when it is needed, then release from aware to 100% in an instant.

    Koyo put it well here:

    When you lose your mobility, you lose the ability to use your full strength. What amount of skill will help the fellow on the bottom?


    Mobility is key in BJJ against larger opponents. BJJ uses the principle of constant pressure to apply force to a small area while maintaining mobility with the rest of the body. When you retain maximum mobility with minimum movement, you can utilize a superior skill set and tactics on a stronger and larger opponent.

    Think Genghis Khan defeating larger forces by use of mobility just enough to draw the enemy into a long chase and then ambush.

    Speaking of BJJ, here is another example of the importance of mobility:

    [ame=""]Royce Gracie vs Akebono - YouTube[/ame]

    Akebono lost his mobility.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If we are talking about to use "mobility" to deal with multiple opponents, when you take your opponent down, you should try not to let him to drag you down. In other words, you should only use those throws that your opponent can't drag you down. Also after your throw, you should use your footwork to get away.

    In the following "single leg" example, you intentionally take your opponent down through his side door. This way, you can "take off" right after your take down.

    [ame=""]my run down - YouTube[/ame]
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The reason that this happen because

    - either the big guy took the small guy down, or
    - the small guy took the big guy down, but the big guy dragged the small guy down with him.

    In the

    - 1st case, there is nothing the small guy could do. The big guy had better wrestling skill.
    - 2nd case, the small guy didn't "prevent" the big guy to drag him down hard enough.

    IMO, not too many people train the 2nd part of wrestling skill (prevent your opponent from dragging you down) in today's ground game environment.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Your wish is my command. This video of Patrick Brady is about 15 years old, but he is a Yang Tai Chi and Guang Ping Tai Chi disciple.

    [ame=""]Tai Chi fighter: Patrick Brady Lei Tai Heavy weight Champion 2002 and 2003 - YouTube[/ame]

    "DUUUUUDE THAT'S SO EXTERNAL"...I kid, I kid... :D Good display of the Tai Chi Chuan balances of hard/soft, internal/external, in my humble opinion.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016

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