Sam Tam demonstrating the form

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    When you post a good video of real internals being used I will let you know.

    Since you don't know the difference and post external videos, it just shows that you really are just a troll or are just clueless of what the internal we are talking about looks like.

    Which is normal thinking, if you have never really met anyone with this type of internal application, if you had then you would not post these ignorant rants like you do.

    Like 23rd wave said, push hands is a training exercise, if you don't know the difference, then your lost.
  2. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    I think your missing the point, trying to make a COMPETITION out of an training exercise does not have much meaning in real world.

    Just to enlighten you a little, most TaichI schools are doing external taichi, and these competitions are usally on the same wavelength.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  3. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    No you won't, because you're misguided, the last two videos I posted are probably some of the best examples of REAL INTERNALS BEING USED and since you can't realize that, you're either a fraud, or just really new to this stuff.

    So Tai Chi world championships are external videos...tell us more, master. And I'd caution you using the term 'we', you've got little to no support throughout the entire thread, have you?

    The truth is you can't even name or discuss in detail any Internal training method, can you. Just broad generalizations you picked up watching Youtube and maybe you took a class or two, but the errant extrapolation you're engaging in is really derailing the thread.

    Have you ever competed with an internal martial art? Yes or no.

    23rd wave is dead wrong, and so are you, and I proved it with videos, it's a training exercise AND USED IN GUO SHU AND TAI CHI WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS! I mean, you're not even funny anymore, it's like you're not even trying to discuss Internal as a disciple. It's no coincidence you and 23rdwave would try calling me a child, when I'm giving you both the proper schooling you deserve.

    Whenever you're reading to start getting real, let me know.

    And when you can post a good video, maybe the whole thread would applaud, don't try to hang your laurels on the misguided posts of another.
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    So wrong, you are. You definitely sound like the guy who simply can't enter a push hands competition at all, so you dismiss the skills on display entirely. It's too sweaty and wrestly for you, right? :D Darn those xternal fools if only they knew your great INTERNAL secrets. Meanwhile everyone watching who's ever thrown down or sparred knows you are full of it.

    "Trying"? You've just exposed your total ignorance of the last 50 years of competitive Tai Chi Chuan. I guess you thought Tai Chi Chuan was something different, I pity your poor training and lack of insight.

    "Training exercise"? It's pretty obvious to everyone who's ever done any noncompliant martial arts competition that this is real, noncompiant martial arts competition. No compliant demos, no suggestions of mysterious 'internal engine'. No wordplay, no rhetoric. This is REAL internal Tai Chi Chuan, and it contrasts sharply against your bombastic delusions.

    No, they're not, and there is no such thing. And let's clear this up: you've never taken part in a single Tai Chi tournament in your entire lifetime, right?

    Unlike many of my Tai Chi Chuan brothers and sisters who have, and who would tell you your positions throughout this entire thread are WACK!

    You're that guy who watches other people play chess, can't play worth a damn, but thinks he's got the best strategies, and you're doubling down on trying to explain chess to the whole room, ignorant of the fact that we know you're making it up as you go.

    When you or 2rdwave actually want to have a genuine discussion of Nei gong training or competition in this thread, I suggest you completely change your approach, because I can tell everyone else is writing you off. I'm actually interested in exposing you as a fraud, so I'll keep at it, within the terms of the TOS.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Okay time to step in and say ease up on the rather silly chest thumping and trolling accusations.

    If you suspect trolling use the report function and the MOD Team will review the reported post.

    I have the realz isn't the best way to get your point across and that goes for those on each side of the argument.
  6. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    What's this? I said to myself "can't I just prove this guy wrong with a simple Google search". He's doubling down on 'internal', but why can't I just find some random Tai Chi article that shows the balance of external/internal being authentic Tai Chi Chuan, not this rabble rousing, elusive thing he's trying to convince an entire forum he alone understands?

    Length of search: 5 seconds

    Source: Dr. Paul Lam

    So there you go Avenger, I found yet another source that makes sense and aligns with everything I've learned about Nei Gong and how it fits into Hung gar, Tai Chi, or anything else you want to name.

    I mean, even a basic student of Tai ji philosophy who has never trained Tai Chi Chuan in their lives, would know what Dr. Lam is saying.

    So why is it you have your own, made-up explanations for things?
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    The irony is I don't even train Tai Chi Chuan, but I still know what "internal" is supposed to address, how it applies to both Tai Chi and Hung gar. I know 'internal's history and a lot of the training I've done is similar or outright can be traced to the old Nei Jia. I've crossed and pushed hands with Tai Chi students. My sifu is a master of both Hung gar and Tai Chi Chuan. But rather than appeal to my own biases, it's just been super simple to just throw out what real Wudang quan schools compete in, and how at that advanced level, external and internal don't mean anything unless they've been blended, just like the Tai ji form suggests.

    I secretly wonder of these folks trying to peddle the awesome powers of 'internal' are really secretly the same people who really do believe in no-touch knockouts and "Qi blasting". Because no matter how much alive martial arts training or competition you show them, it's always poo-pooed as 'not the real thing'. In my opinion, if you do that sort of thing you'd better have proof or something that you could do better, in the same circumstances. But all we get in response is 'you don't know' and 'you're a troll' and 'you're not trained'.

    Gotta be honest, having done grueling Nei Gong work for the last half decade and used that new strength in all sorts of ways, it should upset me more to be lampooned like they are doing. But I'll take the high road and just keep pointing out the volume of mistakes they keep making. If we ever get a real video of skill from either of them, we could have a real discussion. I honestly was floored when I posted Guoshu or World Championships and they doubled down on 'that's EXTERNAL!"

    Dr. Paul Lam, most of MAP, and every Tai Chi Chuan master I've ever met personally seems to disagree. EVERY fight, every skill, every aggression, every defense, is a combination of external and internal aspect. That's what Tai Chi Chuan teaches. You can immediately tell the frauds when they point at something and claim it's ONLY one or the other, because nobody in the actual Nei Jia teaches that. Every Hung gar student knows Internal nei gong is a huge component of training, they start learning it on day 1.

    So please, someone tell us another lie, because they're all over this thread and it's making my skin crawl and wanting to respond with gusto. :D The frothy rum drink I am saluting on this fine weekend is not helping chain my tongue, either. But you won't ever find me trolling about Internal skill or kung fu in general. Come on, I barely post in more than 3 or 4 threads, and only about stuff that I care about. I am moving into more advanced Internal training as I write this, and learning the Iron Wire. I have zero interest in giving anyone a hard time here, unless I feel they're specifically misrepresenting things my instructors taught me.

    Wait until I see sifu next to tell him people claim there is no internal skill in these videos from Guoshu, Lei Tai, or the World Championships, or that 'most Tai chi schools are external'. HAHAHA! This stuff would be comedy gold, if it weren't for the sad fact that some people seem to believe it. He's got no patience for that sort of talk. He didn't have it when I would extrapolate myself, as a new student.

    Me: "Sifu, is this external or internal?"

    Sifu: "Shhh, train"
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Ah, so I am NOT the only one who suspects this is what is the unsaid elephant in the room.

    This is exactly what I suspect, the vague talks about only internal and Chi are suggestions of magic chi blasts.

    But if one really believes that AND can back it up, why not say it? Would it be because if one states it, they know it can't be backed up?

    Now that it has been brought up, would be interested in hearing an affirmation or denial that this is what all the vague secretive "you don't know what internal is" is what they are actually claiming.

    LOVE THIS! (and I just got back from training......)
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It's a variation on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy and is incredibly common amongst those who have lots of theory and little praxis...typically they aren't wrong in telling what they know, they just don't know differently and follow the party line.

    No practitioner of any level has ever stressed the distinction, especially since the advent of the internet and the ability to see a video of a stylist instantly.....sadly many still "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
  10. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    It's like trying to explain atmospheric science to people who think natural disasters are acts of God. The only magic chi blasts are the ones you blame on the dog.
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    So, leaving aside the snobbish talking down to others.................

    you are saying this is NOT what you are claiming then with all your talk of your belief of what true internal is? Using Chi to move people?

    Good, glad to hear it.
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Of course equally it would help if they defined what chi actually was......
  13. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    You know what chi, prana, pneuma, etc. is and you know it need never be discussed to further one's martial ability.

    None of the videos I posted were about chi. They were about cima which both of you claim to practice.

    I'm not the one talking down to the other posters. That would be the lot of you.
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The problem is that until YOU define what you mean by chi you cannot hope for rational discourse - and yes I know what all those terms mean (and also include Will, orgone, serpent energy and father force as similarly claimed terms) but equally they all have mundane as well as prosaic definitions

    The fact you will not clarify is telling - I don't need to talk down when the argument (or lack thereof) being made is missing huge pieces.

    And the passive aggressive schtick is getting old
  15. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Chi. Internal Chinese Martial arts. As if any video of a legitimate school would be only one or the other, to anyone but a simpleton. More discrimination, less Taoist, less Tai ji, thus barely if never close to what Tai Chi Chuan teaches, right?

    That's why when somebody posts a video of Tai Chi Chuan in it's purest combat form (a non compliant push hands competition), two types of viewer results. One understands well the combat applications of Tai Chi Chuan or Nei Jia or Nei Gong in general, another discriminates using his own perspective, definitions, biases, and misconceptions, uses it to further their point online, and so on.

    I thought it was GREAT KUNG FU.

    Talking down to others is anybody pointing at a GUOSHU video of TAI CHI SCHOOLS and abusing them to hedge their own discrimination about 'internal'. By that I mean in a negative way.
    "Thanks for posting an external fighting only video!!" was one, yours weren't much different. Bollocks! (best word I ever learned on MAP)

    Talking down to people? that's exactly what you and Avenger did.

    There's no need for anyone to kowtow here with respect to Nei Jia right? That's the filter through which I discuss this sort of thing online, not as anyone's superior or servant, but as a fact-seeker. To say I've gathered a lot of facts about "CIMA" would probably be an understatement, but I'm willing to not appeal to how many years I've trained personally, but the insights of other people that I agree with, and there are few insights into Tai Chi Chaun's entire concept of "internal gong" than what I posted.

    If I had the time, I should start going back in time from Nei Gong to Shaolin gong methods. Then it'll really get 'internal', and get even more specific. I already posted some of that, now that I think back. I have peer reviewed academic work to use to defend my posts.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  16. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I may be on different sides of the internal/external debate with the others on this thread but I have seen their work and respect the path they are on. I have not seen you and your writing style is reminiscent of young women with less than ten years in the martial arts. The kind that I have encountered in other forums. Either that or you are a teenage boy. No grown man would write as long as posts as yours. You can pfft and poo poo all you want but I am calling your bluff. I am on the 22 push up thread. Push up or shut up.
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Now you are being ridiculous. Brevity is neither a sign of masculinity (which has no bearing on martial arts knowledge or ability), age, longevity in the arts (which is certainly not the same as knowledge or experience) nor indeed any indicator of the quality of a post.
  18. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    If you read the posts you know Iron Fist has gone to lengths to insult me. I have responded.
  19. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Then surely you reported them to the mods and can also quote them here.
  20. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I sent a message to Simon 25 hours ago and he has not responded. So I can only quote you. :)

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