Sam Tam demonstrating the form

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    It's a shame the video in the OP never got published publicly. I'd particularly have liked to dig into these claims:

    But, to echo what other's have said already - a recommendation from Avenger doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in me.

    I stand, awaiting to be corrected :)
  2. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Sam Tam is retired from the seminar tour and now only teaches out of his home in Vancouver, BC. Here is one of his foreign students' experience training with him.
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'm sure I've heard this before somewhere else on MAP? :eek:
  4. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Yes it is, we only read the first third of first book, the second book is only good for Sam Tam chapter.
  5. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Vancouver is full of great masters!

    I didn't get to see the op original video post but wanted to ask how similar in technical skill this gentleman in question is compared to this other Vancouver resident?


    ''Grandmaster Liang's martial arts ancestry originated five generations ago. He started his traditional Emei kungfu and Qigong training with his grandfather in 1948. Through the introduction of his grandfather, Grandmaster Liang then sought out other renowned masters and other styles from Shaolin and Wudang. In the early sixties, Grandmaster Liang began his study and research in the few major styles of Taiji such as Yang, Chen, Sun, and Wu style, Buddhist Esoteric Qigong, and Taoist Qigong. Grandmaster Liang had many times been a gold medalist in Wushu and Taiji competitions held in Sichuan province. Representing Sichuan province, he very often entered into highly competitive national and international competitions and won many gold medals. He was also a many-time gold medalist in Chinese wrestling, weight lifting and gymnastics competitions. In Sanshou and Taiji Push Hands competitions organized by non government sponsored communities, he was undefeated in all events he competed in. In the early sixties, he began his career as a university Wushu coach. His skill coupled with his kindness, generosity, sense of humour, and a ready smile had earned him the friendship and the heart of countless numbers of people.''

    Thanks in advance.

    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  6. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Do you have any videos of him actually touching hands, without that, lots of people have nice looking sets, does not mean they have application of the art.

    I am refering to the internal art using chi with people, not external art using li.
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Did you miss the part about him being a wrestling and weight lifting champion, as well as San Shou champion?

    I WISH we could find video of this. Video that old is not easy to come by.
  8. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    [ame=""]Master Helen Liang interviews Grandmaster Liang Shou-Yu - YouTube[/ame]
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Really good stuff from GM Sam Tam.

    Don't get me wrong with what I'm about to say... what GM Sam Tam did is not very extraordinary. Primarily a demonstration of two principles: (1) Never give the opponent a flat surface to grab or push on, and (2) Apply constant pressure.

    Applying those two principles well and you can duplicate pretty much anything in the videos with softness, IMHO.

    What was so good about this was that he was just doing normal stuff to show how good it is with some real hidden gems. Like I said, good stuff. :happy:
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Liang is up there and has a great reputation, one of Sam Masich's teachers. I've only seen bits and pieces, I'm particularly fond of his fast wrestling book.
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    That's quite a devisive and even unorthodox thing to say, even among kung fu and internal martial arts communities..
    Internal arts are also about harmonizing internal and external or IOW six harmonies movement: Liu He

    Yi leads qi leads li, because no one can move or generate force without muscle recruitment/ involvement.
    The point about not using "Li" or muscular strength is to NOT lead your movement with it, but to lead your movement with Yi.

    The goal is still (using) jin or trained force for martial arts, all said and done, not "chi"..
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  12. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    No, I did not miss that, not relative when trying to him compare to Sam Tam.
  13. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    I know it might look like being soft will do same thing, but it is just not about being soft and moving, most people will try to be soft and run, this is totally different from that.
  14. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Yes their is a blend, but he who uses less force is just doing it at a higher level.
  15. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    All these one line answers aren't doing anything for this thread.

    If you have the answers post something that fully explains your thoughts.

    You disagree with what others post, so explain why.

    Otherwise you are trolling or thread crapping, neither of which is what we want to encourage on MAP.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  16. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I have a tape of him demonstrating TC function.Excellent,indeed.

    Liang is a known guy with the goods,and has been acknowledged by various folks over the years as one of the best in N. America.And I don't mean by his students.
  17. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    How could it not be relative? You asked:

    You questioned his application, but his bio shows he's applied his skills in all sorts of environments including San Shou competition. There are modern videos but this is a relatively elder gentlemen now. But it's pretty clear he's 'touched hands' and then some, far more than the average Tai Chi Chuan practitioner, so definitely has 'application of the art' from an objective point of view. So I think it's definitely relative, he appears to be one of the few Tai Chi masters who has actually scrapped since the dawn of the 20th century. If someone asked me 'show me a Tai Chi master who can actually fight', I would point them in this direction.

    You're not going to tell me San Shou or wrestling don't involve 'internal skill' are you? Am I just misunderstanding your need to discriminate, or are you truly trying to make Nei gong something special all by itself and unrelated to the vast pantheon of physical activities it shares characteristics of?
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  18. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    The bio is not relative because it does not show any aspect of internal engine generation. I know a lot of people who do good in tournaments, none of them have internal engine helping them win, most people competing use external engine.

    Usally people who have and teach internal engine will do it and teach it even when old, like Sam Tam. When I see someone Teaching and using the term chi like Sam Tam, and not depending on large movements and physical strength, then they might have something like internal engine.

    It seems like your still stuck on the theory that internal and external are the same engine which is not the internal that Sam Tam is using, when the chi needs to be developed for internal engine to run, it is different from external fuel which is there from start.

    Earlier in this thread there is link to a thread that talked about the difference between internal engine and external engine.

    So when asked about the other guy in canada, he could be a good fighter, that does not mean he is using internal to fight with, just the term fight to me means using external, until I see him actually be able easily control people who are not his students , a resume is not proof of internal skill.

    Yes nei-Gung is something special, if you spend the years To develop it, it will substantially enhance your existing art.
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Bios generally don't, but we're talking about the bio of a master of nei gong. Are you arguing he isn't? I don't get your point, but please don't assume that means it's valid. Your logic doesn't seem to compute, and that's not just my feedback but the general feedback you're receiving...certainly people here well experienced in what we're discussing, so I don't think anybody here can claim appeals to authority. My point being, the man in the bio appears to be an authority on the subject you're attempting to discuss...probably not the best case study to point at, you wouldn't agree?

    That's really just your opinion, though. Based on what you wrote below, I understand why you feel that way (but then, you can't really explain the existence of the martial Nei Jia).

    Same body, same engine, different methods, same outcomes. Otherwise what you're arguing doesn't make sense, and you're suggesting nei gong can only be found in Chinese kung fu, which is ludicrous. That would be like saying the logic of the Tai Ji is exclusive to Chinese art. It's far more universal (hence its appeal to non-Chinese thinkers and martial artists).

    But his resume is specifically is proof of a looong history of mastering nei gong, and I don't see how you can claim what I bolded. It seems like you have made up your own definition of 'internal', so it's entirely subjective, whereas I'm using the standard, objective definition.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  20. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Well his bio looks good, but I know people who have study different nei gungs and got nothing from it, I am just saying that from the info I have seen it is possible that he is doing something else, I don't know, he could be doing the same, I just don't know from what I have seen so far, do you have some more video of some interactions.

    If I touched his hands or saw or knew someone that touched his hands then I would have more info.

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