Vladimir studying Silat?????? A friend who is a student of Dethours trained with Vlad for a week. He did not seem to think that Vald was teaching Silat. This thread strikes me as one of two things. A troll trying to rubbish Vlad and the system or someone trying to get credit for their system by claiming that other arts are poor offshoots of their own. Paul Genge
What Dethours brother are you speaking about? This could make a difference in your statement. All 4 brothers move very differently from eachother. And truthfully all 4 do seperate arts or interpretations of style from eachother. Pendekar Pauls Serak looks very different than that from Guru Maurice & Pak Vic. And is different than William's Kuntao. I am not at all trying to discredit Vlad infact I think he moves very good. But again I will state that its clear there is a heavy influnce of Pencak SIlat in Systema. If I was Vlad I would be researching Silat as well. So I don;t see how he or anyone doing Systema would take that as an Insult. Infact the fact that they move similar to Silat and other internal Arts is actually a good complement to the martial arts world. If systema was originally russian than how come the rest of the russian and eastern European arts don't look similar? It's safe to say that the ones who put the systema together took the best from all good fighting cultures.
How do you know other forms of Russian MA don't look like Systema? Please also keep in mind that the term Systema can apply to a number of styles i.e. Slaviano-Goretskaya Borba, Kadochnikov Systema, various folk styles; Busa, Skobar,Kozachiy Sploch, I'm sure there's more my history sucks . Systema as most of us know it is Rybako Systema but there are other Russian styles, in fact if I can find it there's a clip knocking about the net showing a Russian MA that looks very Systema-ish but isn't Systema. As I've said before in previous posts; Most people compare something new or unfamiliar to something that is familiar and from there they start to compare and contrast. Usually we use our own experience as a measuring stick now in this case the stick would be our MA background. You guys do Silat and so you compare what you see to your training and when you see something using the same type of movement and principles as your art you then go on to say well it looks like Silat to us so it must be. I also study Bujinkan Taijutsu and many a time when I've been at Systema I've done and seen things that I would put money on has come from Gyokko Ryu (one of the Bujinkan Ryu) the similarity has been uncanny, heck I've even seen on the net people make comments like "it's Russian Ninpo" hmm does that ring any bells . I have a mate at work who does Jujitsu he's done a bit of Systema and said to me one day that there was no point in it for him as he thought it was just very soft Jujitsu very similar to what he already did!! Just because there are principles and concepts that a Silat player may see as Silat doesn't mean Silat had an influence on Rybako Systema. There are many arts that will have had a parallel evolution to one another but that doesn't mean that they influenced one another!!! I think one reason for this may be that as such Systema doesn't really have an techniques it's all movement and principle based and when people see the movement and principles that they have in their own art and without any obvious "trade mark" Systema techniques to pull people up and make them think then they fall back on what they know and fill in the gaps to make things fit in with their reality and how it applies to them. To be honest IMO unless you are training in Systema or have spent enough time in it to have grasped the basic principles and how they apply to the training in the System then I feel that it is a bit arrogant making sweeping comparisons based on limited exposure to the art. Also I do find it very "off" and again arrogant that there are Silat folks on here who are telling two Systema instructors what Systema is and that basically they don't know the dam art they've been training in and teaching for the past x amount of years. Like my instructor Rob and Paul will have trained with and spoken to both Vlad and Mikhail on many occasions and have got their info and knowledge from the two main people in the art they study, their opinion is based on first hand exposure to the "masters" of the art . Now honestly what should they go by ? What has been said here or what they have got right from the horses mouth?? Could someone please point me in the direction of some verifiable historical proof that Silat has had an influence on the evolution of the martial arts in Russia??? On top of that would you Silat folks be kind enough to say what your experience is in Systema. Thanks
Well here it is. My Systema connection? I own the videos and I have analyzed them on numerous occasions. I studied Hoshin Taijutsu Ninpo with Dr. Glenn Morris (a student of Hatsumi's). He was the 1st to introduce me into Systema. He knows Vlad and has trained with him. He had noticed the similarities between it an taijutsu and Pencak Silat. I also spent a few years sharing with someone who practices Systema who had actually trained with Vlad, Kuntao from Uncle Bill Dethaours, and other Chinese internal arts. My next experience was with another Ninpo guy who had done systema for about a year or so. This person came to me to learn Serak & Bukti Negara. Its not about arrogance nor trying to claim ownership on anystyle. Silat has a history (Almost 5,000 years old) that speaks for itself. If you want to know the history or the influence of something you have to dig deep. As far as I can tell yes what systema players are doing is very related and in some cases is almost the same as Pencak Silat.. So then next question logically we should ask is....which came first in human history? I think Silat, and Kuntao has a much older history and it may have been the influence on arts such as Systema, and even Taijutsu and the chinese internal arts (which are only about 180 years old). peace Silatyogi
Thanks for the response Silatyogi, Would I be correct in thinking then that you haven’t actually studied Systema and the only exposure to the art is via DVD and other second hand sources? Just because something may have evolved along similar lines first doesn't necessarily mean that it has had a direct influence on something else! Now to be honest I’m not arguing either way if Silat has influenced Systema, I don’t know enough about Silat to do that, what I am saying is that I find peoples reasoning a bit off. That’s why I’ve asked if anyone can provide verifiably proof of the connection.
My only question is, Does it really matter? Systema works for Russians and the various non-russian practitioners.... silat works for Indonesians and the varied non-Indo players.... If it works for you, doesnt mean it works for another, so each to their own.
Silat P... er sorry Sgt_Major effectiveness hasn't really been bought into it. The focus is more on the "assumption" made by some Silat players that Silat has had some form of direct influence on the evolution of Systema. Now if there were some solid evidence of this then that could be discussed but so far the whole “theory” has been based on the opinion, more than anything solid, of individuals who from what I can see haven’t really got much first hand experience of Systema. I have to admit on many occasion I’ve sat down after class with my instructor and talked about the origins of Systema and the impact of Russian culture on the art, and Russian culture in general, not once has Silat come into the discussion. Ps Does anyone know of any Silat instructors in the West Midland region of the UK. So far I’ve only found clubs down in London or Ireland Cheers
lol.... I agree, but then everyone, correction, some people like to believe that they are studying "the one art", "the first MA", "the mac daddy of arts" or some other ideal that can NEVER be proved... Personally, while I have a strong interest in history, I dont see it as being worth twisting to make me/mine look cool or uber influential.... it is what I want it to be, and it can be whatever someone else wants it to be, I dont care, that way everyone is happy
"The focus is more on the "assumption" made by some Silat players that Silat has had some form of direct influence on the evolution of Systema. Now if there were some solid evidence of this then that could be discussed but so far the whole “theory” has been based on the opinion, more than anything solid, of individuals who from what I can see haven’t really got much first hand experience of Systema." An "opinion" that could actually be researched and possibly shed more light on a vague history. If I were a systema person I'd be more upset about what's happening to systema right now. Like Schools that advertise in the phone book that they teach systema when actually they're teaching Sonnon's RMAX stuff instead. Or schools that have strayed off the path and teach Rukopashnii Boi under the guise of systema. If there is little concern as to what its evolving into and how its being interpreted, why care about its history or where it came from?
RMAX has as yet to take off in the UK. There is one small group in the Wils of the scottish highlands, who study from video's and are soon to have their first contact with Sonnon. Is it different in the states? What you have to understand is that systema is used as a term by a number of russian styles including the Ryabko school. ther is sometimes differences in approach and emphasis. If interested in the Ryabko / Vasiliev approac it is best to check Vlad's site for an authorised instructor. Paul Genge
Paul, I know they say ignorance is bliss, but come on man, Glasgow, Inverness, London etc are not the Highlands. RMAX IS in the UK and HAS been for a few years. Whilst I may be the first to have brought Scott over, RMAX groups have been around for a long time, and this is primarily as RMAX isn’t a martial art, RMAX is about physical culture and efficiency. You have training groups training Circular Strength Training, Body Flow, Yoga, Tennis etc, as RMAX gives the necessary training drills and methodologies to maximise your potential in your own given field. And you don’t learn from videos, you learn from your own movement within your daily practice, as its should be, the videos give you the instruction on how to start on your path, and to supplement your own training, and this is what makes RMAX unique, its not about clones, or rote technique work, its about deepening your own daily practice, and learning from your own movement, and to continually strive forward in everything you do. Speak to the many systema people who where at this weekends seminar. The comments from them echo my own. I have been to many systema seminars, and this seminar and the work of Coach Sonnon and the 4 other head coaches blows anything I have ever seen out of the water. I will be posting more on Scotts own site, and the RMAX UK training group site, at www.rmax.co.uk, as I have just returned home from the seminar. But, as Coach Wilson said at the seminar, don’t abandon who you are, what you do or how you got there, RMAX is about making it better. Andrew Usher RMAX UK Representative
This thread reminds me of claims made by BK Frantis about O'Sensei learning Ba Gua in China. There is no real proof to my limited knwoledge, but worth considering. I train in Systema and have done in Silat too To myeyes the arts are very different in application, theory and movement, but that does not mean I would not consisder the possibility of Systema being influenced by other arts through it's evolution. I wonder if in 20 years the Systema we see of 2025 is similar than that of 2005? Furthermore, before I started traiing in Systema, I bought a few tapes and showed them to a friend. His initial reaction, and the one he still stands by 4 years later, is that it is a product of Russian research in to human movement. The guys I train with would probably dispute this as would most Systema guys, to me it makes no difference really. Efficient movement is efficient movement? Whether it has evolved through time or being studied by dudes in white coats and serious faces. Paul
Certainly some versions of Systema come from the laboratory route. Anything that derives from Kadashnikov's work springs to mine. As for systema changing. It already is. Since I have known Vlad his work has changed. This will be due to his own development, the influence of Michael and the environment it is now being taught in. Who knows where it will go? Paul Genge
Kiai and others... Here's a link on the origins of the various Russian systems and the influence of silat among other arts - pre 1905. http://www.njross.net/Articles/Sonnon/SS2.htm Of course the guys that don't like Sonnon will be posting counter points Such is the quest for truth.
Thank you for the article in the link provided. I will read more thoroughly later but at a glance it seemed that the influence was pre 1905 Dutch Silat (?) and after that there was no more mention of silat. You would not be able to elaborate a bit on the pre 1905 Dutch Silat would you? Thanks in advance KC
Dont really see how the article proves anything, for or against. The only reference to silat, is "SAMOZ, beyond old Russian martial art, also drew upon Spiridonov's field testing his creation against exponents of Japanese Jiu-jutsu, Greco-Roman wrestling, American Catch-wrestling, non-sport British pugilism and Dutch Silat. This again is circa 1905 (before the '17 October Revolution)".
Inthespirit, I don't think the article is out to prove or disprove anything - at least I am not. I just find it interesting that Silat is seen by many in Systema, and was wondering whether there were any threads of connection between the arts. The article is, however, problematic as I don't think Dutch silat existed yet pre 1905 as at that time the Dutch East Indies had not yet even been territorially consolidated. Aceh was still at war, Bali had just been sacked, and the Dutch population was still very sepparate from the locals. I had always thought that Dutch silat was brought to Holland by Indo-Dutch people who sided with the Dutch during the Independence Revolution 1945-1949 and went back to Holland when they lost. I still think that Dutch silat as a phenomenon appeared in the 1950's in Europe and migrated to the USA in the 1960s-70s. Please correct me if I am wrong. Warm salaams to all, KC
As they say “all roads lead to Rome”, in other words the deeper one delves in to any art the more connections and similarities appear, at least that’s what I noticed. In my opinion, even if there is no overt connection between arts, there is still some crossover in them, at the end of the day fighting is fighting, whether this be against oneself or others.
