Review / Notes Kukishin Ryu – Hanbojutsu - Art of Stick fighting

You got it in one and I cant see what it is your getting at here.

is it Bujinkan bashing as thats what it is starting to look like. So go ahead carry on bashing away.

How can you compare them as the same when they are not. I see two branches of the same ryu and see differences between them and have no problems with it.

i think if your going to bash one Kuki school you need to drag the lot into the discussion as well as all the Takagi Ryuha as picking on one or two is a little unfair and one sided in my opinion, how about comparing it with Kukishin Ryu from Tanaka Fumon, and Takagi Yoshin Ryu from Kusuhara. then with your knowledge of Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu you can tell us which is correct and which is not.

 

Most of your post is irrelevant as I ain't bashing the Booj here.

I am curious, however, as to how two (or more) lines of a school can practice so differrently... This is inherent in my own school when comparing it to Noda-ha Niten Ichi-ryu - both from the same origin 400-odd years ago and yet so different.

The thing with KKS is that the differences seem to have developed recently?

 

...oh, and I am disheartened you bought Mr Tanaka into a serious discussion about budo.

 

What is fushin?

I can't say that the Bujinkan-and-offshoot hanbojutsu isn't presented in kata form, though the degree of ritualism is generally not as great as in some other martial arts.

And which koryu KKS material, considering how as other people stated, the Kuki and Takagi lines have been a jumble for quite some time?

As for the "judo-style jujutsu" matter, I don't think there's anyone who'll be able to give you a clear idea on that one, considering how many styles Mr. Hatsumi and the others are associated with.

I don't know about Bujinkan video, but here's a video of one of their offshoots. (Thankfully, they're not demonstrating their sword art here.)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgDS1WQfIE"]YouTube- Jinenkan Dojo, Sample Weapons Lesson, Hanbo[/ame]

 

Hi Scott,

The Kukishin Ryu, as Paul stated, has no mainline left anymore. The story goes that one of the Shihan killed a member of another Ryu in a match, who had ties to the Shogun, and the Kuki family were prohibbited from teaching their martial arts (although they were permitted to continue their branch of Shinto, Nakatomi Shinto). However it had already spawned a number of branches, which were passed down in various forms to the present day, including Hontai Kukishin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, and other branches linked in with the Takagi Ryu-ha, as well as many more (I count somewhere around 10 branches in the Kans).

Takamatsu recieved a number of these branches, and in his research came into contact with Kuki Takaharu, the then head of the Kuki family. By gaining access (through Kuki Takaharu) to the Kuki family Archives, Takamatsu helped at least partially re-construct the Kukishin Ryu for the Kuki faimly (in the 1930s, I think), which is now formally taught under the banner of Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu, incorporating three main aspects: Kukishin Ryu, Nakatomi Ryu Shinto, and Kumano Shugendo.

Many generations prior to that, however, the Kukishin Ryu had come into contact with the Takagi Ryu (a few different stories here, the most common is that the 3rd Soke of Takagi Ryu, Takagi Gennoshin Hideshige came into contact with the 4th Soke of Kukishin Ryu, Ohkuni Kihei. They were friends, friendly rivals, colleagues, or something similar, and when Takagi passed, he left the Takagi Ryu to Ohkuni, and the Kukishin Ryu was taught with the Takagi Ryu from then on, with the Kukishin taking the weaponry aspects, and the Takagi Ryu taking the Jujutsu side of things. The Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu slightly argue this story, by the way). So the Takagi Ryu had it's weaponry, specifically it's Bojutsu and Hanbo, taken directly from the Kukishin Ryu. about 3 generations ago the Ryu split in three main groups, the Mizuta Den, Ishitani Den and the Minaki Den. The Ishitani and Mizuta found their way to Takamatsu, and the Minaki is best known as Hontai Yoshin Ryu (as an aside, the Mizuta Den is found in the Genbukan these days, and retains it's Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, whereas the Ishitani Den found in the Bujinkan does not....).

The Minaki Den, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, still claims it's weapon techniques (well, at least the Bojutsu, the Iai is a very recent adoption of Toyama Ryu) as being Kukishin Ryu, although with changes made in the last few generation there is little resemblance to the Bujinkan or Genbukan versions that I've seen.

So when we're talking Koryu Kukishin Ryu, which one are we talking about? It could possibly be argued that the branches found in the Bujinkan, Jinenkan and Genbukan are more koryu than the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu as, although not the mainline, they have been passed down whereas the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu is at least partially reconstructed in the early 20th Century. Takamatsu actually helped establish the "new" Kukishin Ryu in an organisation known as Kodo Senyokai.

When it comes to the way it's practiced, well, the art is passed down as kata, same as any koryu system. However, Hatsumi doesn't really teach in a koryu fashion. Whether that is good or bad is up to the individual, I suppose.

 

Hi Chris,
 
Welcome to MAP!
 

Could you go into some more detail about these lines branching off prior to 1649 – particularly Kukishinden Happo Biken?

 
This paints a picture that there was one line of Takagi ryu until 3 generations ago, as you say, which split into the Minaki, Mizuta and Ishitani lines. Takagi ryu has in fact been spitting and splitting for many generations. The three lines you mention are branches from three different lines.
 

 
This is mixed up. Mizuta-den was transmitted without bojutsu.  

 
According to the traditions of the school the kodachi and iai come down through Takagi ryu, not Kukishin ryu. (They have Hontai Yoshin ryu iai within the ryuha too. This is in addition to Toyama ryu, which is taught as a separate transmission).

 

Again, thanks for the welcome.

 

Hi Chris,

I know this is an old thread but I surf around to see who is posting stuff about Takagi Yoshin Ryu. I noticed you made a mistake in one of your posts.

Bujinkan - Takagi Yoshin Ryu - Is the Mizuta line not the Ishitani line. Hatsummi could have learned both but I have not seen it yet.

Genbukan - Takagi Yoshin Ryu - Is the Ishitani line, Tanemura Sensei is Soke of the Ishitanni line but has MK in the Mizuta line. Tanemura Sensei also has learned another line.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman