"Rethinking the 21-foot rule"- shooting a knifer

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2007/10/rethinking-the-21-foot-rule.aspx

Short summary: the original study that led to the "an attacker can cross 21 feet before you can draw" rule used circumstances that were more artificial than what may be found in the field. Revised measurement is suggested to be around 45'.

I personally don't carry firearms, but I suspect a few of you do. Though more academic than anything else, figures you might want to know.

 

Honestly unless you're police or something similar responding to a standoff type event already underway (hostage, EDP, etc.) I can't imagine many situations where one could expect the knife to appear at a distance greater than conversational. Cool info, but I feel like having an appropriate reactionary gap per the study is pretty much out of the question.

 

A friend of mine is retired FBI. He once told me that a group of agents were in a simulated arrest exercise, where they had to enter a building an arrest an experienced knife fighter. The fighter waswaiting in the building, not hidden.

All officers thought they were in control of the situation, right up to the point where they were cut to ribbons without being able to shoot the guy. After the review of what happened, all were asked to go in again, this time knowing what would come. the outcome was still the same.

The 21 foot rule might not be entirely accurate, but make no mistake. As soon as you come within a distance that the other person could cross in a couple of seconds, your chances are not good.

 

What does that actually mean?

A multiple time prison shanker? A sayoc kali guy with too many trainers strapped to him? A 3rd world tribal war vet?

 

It's been a while since he told me, but iirc it was a martial artist like a kali guy.

 

cheers,one whos used a knife in a fight before?

 

That, I don't know. I don't know the name so I can't look it up.

 

IIRC, the original video has dan inosanto performing as the knifeman.

the new article states that current LEOs need more time passing the OODA loop (and probably doesn't spend much time practicing quickdraws ;p ) thus a knifer with good legs can reach him easy within less than 45 feet.

 

While I agree with your point, I also think this type of data is quite valuable in designing training programs, even if the only benefit is to help students conceptualize weapon strengths and limitations.

 

Well havent read the article but unless u are carrying a 5.56 or 7.62 21feet is still too close.

 

What possible difference can the calibre of gun make? Also those are typically rifle calibers, I think you misunderstood what the article was about.

 

Then go and read it before offering erroneous advice then

 

Personally I think the advice should be "simply be aware of the situation and your surroundings". 45' is almost 14 meters. If police officers are sticking to this rule of 21' or 45'. How are they managing to interact with people and calm them down in difficult situations? A knife just an inch long can penetrate all the way through to the heart. Such a weapon is easily concealable at 7' or less never mind 21' or 45'.

I could be wrong on this. But so far as I know, it's fairly normal for the police in America to be out patrolling on their own. In the UK, at least in Scotland to my knowledge, police typically patrol in pairs wearing stab proof vests. That extra pair of eyes and protection seems to make a world of difference.

 

The 21 ft rule is exactky about the importance of awareness. Previously it was simply a case of "oh never bring a knife to a gun fight!" But once this maxim was disproven other options were considered

Anyone who clings to the inherent superiority of a firearm is deluded

 

It really has to suck being a cop sometimes when questioning or detaining a dangerous individual (or possible one) comes into play. In the military we never had to question people until after they were detained and searched, and that involves one guy holding somebody at gun point coordinating movement with the second guy who searches them (coordinate so if fire opens up the searching guy doesn't get shut).

I can only imagine how people would react if the police SOP was to exit their vehicle with weapons drawn and doing the same type of procedure as the military (and how many people would get shot as well) for every situation, but it would be safer.

I can only see a 21 foot rule working for somebody who is alert and expecting (without a doubt) that they will be charged as well as being a quick draw. Other than that I think it's a pretty stupid rule.

 

It's not a "rule" so much as a warning. Most interactions are within 6ft so the idea behind "anything less than 21ft and a knife is a lethal threat" is to raise the individual awareness.

The concept I teach is solve the problem first, then transition to a firearm. Most people got killed going for their gun, forgetting zoning and other tactics necessary to buy them the time to draw, aim and shoot. I didn't see DLO until later, and was happy that the concept is the same as I was doing, even if there was subtle differences (and others not so subtle) in the techniques used

 

There are multiple sides to a "rule". A rule can be part of law and/or part of training. If part of training, then it is more of a best practices.

In tactical firearms training I took back in the early 1990s, we had to draw a concealed weapon and fire into a target that was 21 feet away. We had to hit twice in under 1.5 seconds. Some people could do this in half that amount of time. If you could not do it in 1.5 seconds, you failed the test.

It was a training exercise based on the studies that had been done at the time. With newer information today, the training exercise can change, but the basic principles of being able to draw, fire, and hit the target in a specified amount of time will not change.

As for the actual distance, what Hannibal said about awareness was a big factor. It was awake up call to many that had not been raised in a blade culture at the time to realize how quickly a knife can be deployed and used. Even the momentum of the attacker can take a knife into you if you do not get out of the way.

 

I carry a 9mm on occasion I always carry a knife. My thoughts are that your going to take a bit longer to deploy a weapon than it's going to take for someone to close the distance with their own. That being said I just try to be ready to defend unarmed and try to learn to deploy said weapon under attack. A lot off weapon based attacks are going to be ambush attacks you may not think you need a weapon until you realize someone is really aiming to kill or maim you.

I have seen a few shooting schools teaching unarmed methods while drawing this is the best thing to learn if your going to be carrying a weapon. I have only seen a few people that taught unarmed strikes and blocking while drawing a pistol. I have seen several Law Enforcement people training to use weapons in a grappling situation. Learning to keep someone away from their gun and using weapons from their backs.

 

We conver wounded, close proximity and grounded shooting in basic training but most never touch those drills again after they graduate. They also tend to neglect their empty hand skills

Both are massive peeves of mine