Retaining Rankings in other Korean Martial Arts

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Quozl, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Hi all, Kidsool posted the following reply in one of the threads here, when I made a comment about students of KSW schools not being able to study their art if the school they were in left KSW, and having to start again as a "white belt" in a new art if they wanted to progress in Korean Martial Arts.

    "Actually, there are several places where folks with WKSA grades can go and continue learning the Kuk Sool art...Lets see:

    World Kido/Hanminjok
    National Korean Martial Arts Association
    United Martial Science Federation

    to name a few, plus all of the independent instructors, and masters that have broken away, and still teach...

    WKSA does not mean Kuk Sool, and Kuk Sool does not mean WKSA...its not the sole source. There are many very knowledgable, and capable instructors and masters outside of WKSA,"

    I am very greatful to Kidsool for this reply and it points out my ignorance of these matters greatly.

    So, one of my questions, and there may be more, is:

    "How much in the Kuk Sool Won curriculem is direcly transferable to one of the other Korean Martial Arts that are affiliated to one of the three associations / federations above, and also how would one retains one belt ranking in these KMAs?"

    Your thoughts on this matter are very much appreciated and thank you in advance.
     
  2. KSWarrior

    KSWarrior www.warriorinstitute.com

    A large portion of the syllabus is directly transferable. There are various order changes of techniques, additional forms, each group may stress different aspects of kuk sool and may explain techniques from various prespectives. The kuk sool syllabus is already pretty inclusive as it is. I can't see why any of these other groups would make too many big changes. Most of the other (kuk sool) like organizations are headed by former high ranking WKSA masters who have at some point had access to the entire syllabus...many have had access to the original chart! I know for a fact that the more popular ones accept rank from WKSA and it does transfer over. From my limited knowledge of them...from a business perspective their fee(s) and control over the school(s) are extremely lose compared to the WKSA. Some of these groups even offer marketing, advertising, software and business stratgies.
     
  3. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    i don't know about the top two but (correct me if i'm wrong) the united martial science federation was created by master simms so i would assume that anyone transferring to that org would keep their respective rank.

    the problem (if indeed it is a problem) for us, Quozl, is that afaik these organisations aren't readily available in the uk.
     
  4. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Davefly,
    Where there is a will, there is way. I'll leave it at that for now.
     
  5. Silentmonk

    Silentmonk The Blue Donkster!!

    Well if you left and joined there would be Dave LOL I dare ya!!!

    hehe sorry thats a joke I don't think dave fly should really leave, if you like apple pie, have found a good source of apple pie, and you think its a fair price for apple pie then why try a different shop just to get apple pie.

    Unless they have more cinnamon in their pies mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Sorry had to use pies for dave to understand the analogy. :)
     
  6. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Not that I am looking to change my pie shop at the moment, but it is an area that is quite intetresting really.

    As Davefly said there aren't many oportunities in the UK to transfer if one wanted to, however, one assumes (wrt Kidsool's observation)that if the demand grew for the alternative Korean KS related Arts in the UK and enough higher ranking belts (black belts of whatever dahn) wanted to open new schools under these federations etc, then it would just be some negotiation about getting a high enough master rank to come over here to the UK and open the definative KS association / federation / wot not school for the other black belts to learn the various diferences etc and away one goes.

    However, one assumes that, as there are differences between the different codes, in order to retain one's rank, one would have to "catch up" and learn the differences.

    Thus I suppose the next question in this is:

    WRT hyung, not wishing to list all of the hyung, but as an example wrt Ki Cho Hyung, are there any differences in this hyung between the various Kuk Sool associated federated etc styles and KSW?

    Which leads to the next question, if the KS styles (and I am not looking at the Hapkido styles but those that specifically grew from KSW) all had their origin in KSW, where do the differences come from: e.g. difference in the ordering of techniques; where do any additional Hyung come from; and if there are changes in the hyung wrt say Ki Cho Hyung, where do they arise from?

    There are some discussions on this wrt the totallity of the Korean arts from the likes of Bruce W Sims in other threads, relating to the Hapkido and KS origins etc. But this is more of a KS sort of question, unless it does bring in the Hapkido etc styles as well! Or is this all a can of worms? If so sorry for that.
     
  7. karma

    karma Valued Member




    i guess the differences would be in the way the teacher taught his syllabus. i know within the umsf things are taught from a scientifical standpoint. techniques employee such things as levers, body mechanics, etc, etc. the scientific principles are picked apart and practiced within the association. these principles are ..i don't know the word.... not biased to one culture or another. a way a wrist moves is the same thru any style, japanese, korean, chinese, etc. i could not fathom to say what other organizations do for their syllabus, but my opinion are that scientific principles are unbiased and all learn equally. depends on what you mean by hyung differences. for ex., the hyung that is now taught ( white thru brown belt) is not the origional kuk sool hyung. so i guess it would depend on what instructor you would go with and what time frame he left the wksa.
     
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I just have to nit-pick with you, karma... so you mean to tell me that Master Sims teaches hyung the way the WKSA did them at the time he split away? (which was just a few years ago, and lo-o-ng after they were butchered by the likes of In Sun Seo in the very first KSW textbook which he published -- BTW, GM IHS was too gentlemanly to backstab his brother and say that the hyung in that textbook was overly harsh and way too similar in style to TKD, et al.)

    Or does Master Sims prefer to do the hyung the *original* way he learned them from GM IHS, so many years ago?

    Just wondering...
     
  9. karma

    karma Valued Member


    yes, the hyung as they are taught today are very tkdish, matter of fact, i stated that on another link one time and everyone thought i was crazy that the forms looked nothing like tkd. but you are absolutely correct on this point. master sims teaches both versions. i do not premise to speak for master sims, but i do not think you will ever find something that he "favors" in the martial arts. i think he thinks of it as a whole and likes each part equally. i do not think you would ever find him saying this or that technique is my favorite. i think what one would find is it is the scientific part of a thing he appreciates. in all fairness, the way the wksa teaches the underbelt hyung now does have its benefits, but it is not, as you well know, the way they were designed by gm suh.
     
  10. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Hi Guys,

    Without wanting to sound completely ignorant (but probably sounding so anyway :rolleyes:); from the last couple of threads from Unknown KJN and Karma, the Hyung have changed within Kuk Sool (and for ease and simplicity I am refering to that version taught through the WKSA).

    How significantly have they changed, and why have they changed. If I understand correcly KSN IHS created KSW 50 years agom after studying for a long time etc. What has changed in the laast 50 years that means what he codified in KSW, was wrong 50 years ago. Sorry to sem daft, but if this is a system that goes back a long, long time (1,000's of years, maybe), either, what KSN IHS codified as KSW 50 years ago was an unfinished work (i.e. he had furthr research to do that meant that as he learned more he could and would modify things to bring them back to being closer to the original way they were done (which would be nice); or we westerners are not so disciplined as to be able to do things the way they were meant to be done by the Koreans, umptine years ago, and KSN has had to tone it down to cater for us being a bunch of ald softies :hat:.

    I would like to think the former, as I wouldn't like to be a softy :) .

    Where I think I am coming from is the fact that we are lead to understand that the Kuik Sool we learn is being "protected" to ensure its purity, and ensure that things don't get changed by people going away and changing things (as they do in other martial Arts such as Aikido, Kung Fu, etc where there are all sorts of different styles of the different arts (and yes now know that there are different styles of Kuk Sool as well). But once a styl is fixed surely it is fixed. What has changed to mean that the hyung or the techniques get changed? Hope this makes sense.

    Quozl
     
  11. karma

    karma Valued Member

     
  12. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    Well, we live in the day and age of YouTube. :)

    Are there any video references to display the differences? Or could someone that's schooled in the differences perhaps create a new video to demonstrate the differences and/or evolution/changes in the hyung?
     
  13. davefly76

    davefly76 Valued Member

    the more observant of you may have noticed the videos posted on youtube of kuk sul do. the hyungs they perform look somewhat "different" to those we learn in KSW.
     
  14. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    That may be the case, but what does that mean? Are they "old school Kuk Sool Won" versions? Or are they perhaps Kuk Sul Do's own flavor?

    I've seen others (break-offs from IHS's art/system) performing Kuk Sool hyung and doing so with various changes. Question remains if those changes are originals or their own changes. That would be nice to clarify.
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    SOMEWHAT?! I didn't see enough differences to have anything come to my mind OTHER than KSW. :dunno:

    IMO those few differences are insufficient to rule out where these hyung obviously originated from (think of my quote used in hwarang cl's sig). The differences ARE sufficient to grade low in a tournament or rank test setting, however. ;)


    Agreed. No question asked in the spirit of increasing one's knowledge & understanding should be thought of as *unworthy* of being answered. And karma is right about the differences in the hyung being difficult to describe. But here goes...


    Certainly the newer versions aren't as flowing as the originals, even SLIGHT choppiness in the connection of the movements (putting in distinct pauses where none existed previously), takes away from the ease & flow that should eventually become part of the movements. There are also a few extras (in regards to certain blocks & other extraneous additional movements) that weren't in the original versions. I would also surmise to say that there is LESS emphasis on correct breathing in the way hyung are taught and practiced nowadays.

    (karma, please comment on how well I pulled it off, either here in the thread or via PM -- just curious if you thought I did a good job or not.)


    Ki Cho Hyung is perhaps the MOST different one of the bunch, but that sorta makes sense when you realize that it forms the *building blocks* by which we learn the remaining hyung. One OBVIOUS difference that even GM IHS, himself, changed was the number of parts in KCH (hopefully, everyone realizes that what makes KCH a BASIC form is the fact that it's done in sections -- once you eliminate the return to "ready position" i.e. KONG KYUK JA SE, essentially blending all parts into one, the form is IMMEDIATELY elevated to something worthy of a higher status, perhaps even to BB). I originally learned only five parts to KCH, albeit with a sixth part as an extra (original #5 was current #6, and the "extra" 6th part was the current #5). By doing the current #5 last and eliminating that final backward step, it leaves you ready to perform the hyung on the "other" side (i.e. from BAHNG UH JA SE). FWIW, the L-shaped step in #3 was done going back with the right foot, rather than forward with the left.

    You may note that there's nothing DRASTICALLY different in what I've outlined, but enough to be obvious to ANYONE learning both methods. Hopefully, this is enough to "quench" your inquisitiveness, as most BBs eventually learn most of the concepts omitted from the current versions of under BB hyung (at least in MY experience, that's what I've seen to be taught). IMO, this is why some people insist the curriculum has been "dumbed-down" as easily taught concepts seem to be withheld from the lower ranks when before they weren't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2008
  16. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Thank you for that, KJN.

    When you refer to the "L Shaped Step" in "#3", are you referring to the part that leads into il moo roop jaseh (one knee stance), with a downward soo do?

    That's the way I learned to do it...

    My Kicho Hyung
     
  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Yup, exactly that last part.
     
  18. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Kamsahamnida
     
  19. karma

    karma Valued Member



    uknown kwan jang nim has a much better way with type than i. also, the origional forms do not have the blocking patterns the present ones do. i know gm suh has stated blocking was a waste of time. you know, the you punch i block, i punch you block, you punch i block kind of chicken fight. if the person punches, hit 'em first. any way, my two cents.
     
  20. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Uh... didn't I say that? Let me hilite that portion, just for clarity's sake:

    But yeah, what I always liked about the opening of KCH #1 (original version) was that it was the EXACT movements that you perform as the attacking side of technique sets encountered in the middle portion of the under BB curriculum (e.g. Maek Chigi, Maek Chagi, Joo Muhk Maga KBS, and any other "kick/punch" initial movement done by the attacking side). Way too many people like to argue that this type of attack, as well as the simplistic grabs used in other technique sets, is unrealistic. But the main idea is to teach the ensuing technique, so the initial attack by your partner SHOULD be simplistic as even a non-MAist could be told what to do. This way, you can easily demonstrate (or practice) any of your techniques on them.

    FWIW.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008

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