I think maybe I need to know what kind of zenkutsu dachi you prefer. a) traditional karate front stance (zenkutsu dachi), or b) karate fighting stance (shortened front stance called han zenkutsu dachi), or c) Kempo "Bow" stance where the hips are 45 degrees (hanmi) but the upper body is kept square. Here is an article explaining a bit on (a) and (c), with the traditional stance being (a) and the "new" stance being (c). http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/techniques/zenkutsudachi.html All of the above slightly turn in the front foot to better protect the low line (groin and knee). Han zenkutsu dachi was a fighting stance used in the "straight blast" tactics that became popular through karate. Circling (evading side to side), then blasting in with a strong attack(s). This is a more balanced stance. I see it used in MMA a lot as a cross between a boxing stance and a much lower wide base used in some Jiu-jitsu for grappling. The "bow" stance is much more linear but is basically "crane" style. I could describe it like two birds fighting. You need to be very good with kicks, IME, with this because of the low stances, it inhibits your ability to move around and kick as a trade off for more upper body power. If you are really good with kicks, you can compensate for the restrictions places on mobility and kicking from this stance. Traditional front stance is not for fighting, it can be used for fighting but it is mainly for training. In fact it might have been developed for troops moving in formation through tall grass. The stance limits mobility but when in formation that isn't really an issue as much as keeping formation and moving as one. The sweeping motion of the crescent step could be to clear the tall grass for the troops behind you will have a path.
Mmm... the stuff I'm talking about has nothing to do with Kamae. There's a reason I gave the example as being "straight legged, feet shoulder width apart." It feels uncomfortable because you're weak front to back. In a sense "r3al" bujutsu is still being able to affect your opponent with "just" your "core." Not to be harsh but anyone and there mother could affect someone using proper kamae, angles of attack, timing etc. Taking out all the groovy concepts of sen no sen, sen sen no sen, go no sen etc, how do you still take someone's balance at point of contact?
That's what you're doing with this posting spree isn't it sir? BwuhaHAAA! Upyu! Where have you been lurking? I popped into Bushido and ebudo the other day but didn't see you around... haven't been to aikiweb for ages. Koyo, I should tell you, this kid is training with IMO the best aiki-related internalist I've ever met. I'm sure Upyu will argue with that definition but to cut through a lot of flimflam it serves as a working definition. (By internalist, I don't mean any mystical BS, I mean you can't see where the heck he hits you from... incredible short power, incredible rooting) I used to train with the same teacher, and I left with nothing of his skills but the most useful solo exercises you can get and a completely changed concept of aiki, and would train with him again if I had the time and money. If he's got a fraction of the skills his teacher has he should be halfway useful by now. BTW, Rob, whytf didn't you tell me about Akuzawa's seminars last summer? You said you'd keep me informed, and nothing! I had a whole bunch of folk lined up to meet Akuzawa based on what I'd said, including a godan goju friend of mine, and nothing! Most of them are probably not around now (though the goju guy still wants to get hooked up). I don't even know when and where Akuzawa teaches anymore (if it's still the Seibu Ikebukuro line that should suit the goju guy if ever he has free time off his several jobs). Plus I wouldn't mind getting a new charge-up, something new to work with... haven't practiced his stuff on my own for a while and need a bit of a kickstart. Don't forget, if you do any more seminars in London/UK I should be able to get most of my old aiki dojo down to go and see you (and there are some huge LEOs in that bunch too! ) and if you do any more in Tokyo, let me know FFS.
If you are using atemi, then your strikes will stun and uproot. By using the power of the whole body, particularly the hips and generating the power from the ground up. This is one way to unbalance. If you are redirecting, they have to do most of the work for you. Such concepts such as foreground and background can be used. Get them to attack your foreground, while you move the background slightly off the line of attack. Redirect the attack into a technique that unbalances them. This is all good but can take many years to develop into anything practical. In the meantime, someone is trying to break your knees with a baseball bat, so learning good kamae is a necessity for most.
Punchy dude! Long time! I've been kicking it, you know me jus trying to stir up the pot occasionally :Angel: Sorry I've been outa touch, didn't mean to keep you out of the loop. Been kinda busy, things have been heating up. I got pulled into teaching a seminar out in Seattle and DC Even Ark was like..."wtf!" lolz There's a review of the seminar up in Aikiweb in the Open Discussions section. Anyways, I'm sure there'S going to be plenty more seminars. Specifically around Golden Week. We still practice in the same place in Fujimidai. But occasionally get a matted room in Ogikubo to throw each other around more harshly :love: We're having a seminar in Paris and Holland on the 14th-15th and 21st-22nd, so if any of your friends can make the hike, let them know. Nori redid the webpage as well -> www.aunkai.net He's even got an emphasis on Sanda/Toshukakutou going on Thurdays as well. You should drop by sometime!
Using Atemi for Kuzushi is fine, so are the foreground, background stuff. Moving off the line of attack etc. But what I'm talking about is even more basic than that. Actually, all the stuff you talk about happens as a result of having this basic bodyskill What if you strike me in the chest while I stand there doing nothing, and your strike simply boucnes back into you? (Ok ok sure you could pop me in the Jaw, or nuts, or whatever, but we're still just doing shop talk, so I'm sticking to a pure exercise scenario for now) If you condition properly then the Kamae should be a result of that conditioning...and while it takes a couple of years to get really good results (maybe 2-3) it doesn't take years and years to apply them. Haven't had someone try and break my knees with a baseball bat, but I did have a certain SWAT guy take a good shot at me with a thai low kick at one of the seminars and bounce it back into him without me doing anything at all.
Ah, I see. And yes I was leading to the point that there are parts of the body that really aren't effectively going to be toughened such as the eyes, throat, groin, and knees. Although some try to toughen their groin every weekend...lol. Add weapons to the mix and... But talking shop, I think I know what you are talking about. I've hurt myself hitting other people. Sometimes it was just because they were so muscular that it was like hitting a wall, sometimes it was from hitting bone on bone (ouch), and occasionally it was from some kind of internal training that protected the internal organs, it was like hitting bread dough and then getting it all bounced back at me. I feel that you have a good point about conditioning properly. I don't exactly disagree with the importance of good conditioning, but I would say that Kamae is developed through many means, mostly what it ends up being is a product of experience, particularly real world experience. Realism in training becomes very important. I don't know if I'm going to unbalance someone, all I'm doing is stacking the odds heavily in my favor that I will. There is no magical formula, it is a craps shoot.
On the other thread I mention training with gerry Kincaid 5th dan kendo. We cross train together. When Gerry attends aikido training if he is not unbalanced at the instant of contact it is like attempting to uproot a tree.He ocassinaly uses tai tari (spelling?) simply striking with the body or rooting himself . People are "bounced off of him". I can do this myself during training and use it often as counter technique simply "rooting" myself and attacking a kuzushi. Upyu Even before Mr Punch gave me the headsup I sensed that you were attempting to set us up . So right back at you. A description please of the lone training to develop chikara. (powerful ki) :Angel: regards koyo kuzushi from a static posture. Sorry can't (won't) lose the triangular kamae.
Right now it is han zenkutsu dachi. We tend to train in traditional zenkutsu. The reason is, in a pressure situation, the stance will most naturally shorten to han zenkutsu. koyo, I'm currently researching on the vulnerablilities of the zenkutsu dachi and the other swordfighting stance....I believe that in the end, both are far from perfect. But I don't believe that zenkutsu is any more vulnerable in a multiple attacker situation than others, zenkutsu makes it easy to accomplish high speed circular body movements allowing you to readjust positions quickly. I'll certainly get back to you, this could be in my Shodan grading!
Good luck on your shodan grading.I think that ,like Rebel, I am unsure of exactly how you perform zenkutsu. The litteral translation is forward leaning stance.Which perhaps gives the wrong impression. We never use dachi stances because it is believed that a stance which displaces the centre of balance "traps" us for an instant. I attended a seminar by Enoida shihan "the tiger of shotokan" karate where he stunned the group by stating there are no "stances" in karate.This while our legs were screaming from kiba DACHI zenkutsu DACHI kokutsu DACHI et al!!!! He explained that you move through the "stance" never allowing it to trap you for an instant. And then of course he put us back into STANCES!!! again best wishes for your grading my thoughts are with you. regards koyo edit perhaps at shodan level zenkutsu is to establish balance with a forward (positive ) attitude and develop a powerful centre and may rise to san kako ho later. Just a thought.
It's a few years off, but now that I am taking a more active part in teaching, I just want to understand more about Aikido and it's context, and to keep in mind modern applications and developments. Thanks very much for your wishes, they are much appreciated. I wish I could discuss more with you at length, but there is a lot for me to think about. A lot to learn too. Coupled with Rebel Wado, this is like research for a thesis. Perhaps this video might help with letting you see how we use zenkutsu. Criticisms are welcome at this point, I'm really looking to be a sharp aikidoka now. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG6H4UD-Jtw"]YouTube[/ame] Rebel I'm going to try and track down some videos of Parker Sensei. I've read about him , his exploits are legendary. I've read "Zen in the martial Arts" by Joe Hyams, that told me a little about him. I'm interested in the attacks that he would use (which would change depending on the situation anyway I would assume) in the straight blast you are speaking of.
Clarified that was not how I pictured zenkutsu it is much closer to the triangular kamae that we use. I have re-opened daito ryu thread where you can find video of my two main instructors Chiba shihan and Saito shihan. regards koyo
Han zenkutsu dachi can be a very natural fighting stance. It also transitions well to a boxer's stance by keeping the weight more 50/50 on the legs, and it can transition well to a sharper triangle (hanmi) by turning the hips and upper body. The strength of han zenkutsu is that it allows for both sides of the body to be used in close combat. It also allows for some quick footwork and side-to-side evasion (like a boxer). Its main disadvantage, IMO, is that if you are particularly large, say some of these heavy weights out there, and you are not particularly fast, you do leave a lot of realstate open for attack. Of particular concern, IME, is weapon attacks the inside of the legs and groin. Now this is not as much of a concern if you have good armor and a nice big weapon protecting your centerline. But if you are unarmed and unarmored and they have a weapon, a more "sideways" profile can make you a smaller target and this can be very important to consider. For instance, compare the fencer's T stance to the front stance. Nice video, good stuff. Thanks for sharing. The only criticism I have is the tall one (is that you?) might consider protecting the legs more when doing a hip throw. I noticed that the leg was kept straight and out to the side where uke was thrown over it. This is dangerous IME as a very large uke can fall wrong and basically collapse on the leg and break it. Either keep the legs out of the way and together (e.g. like in Judo), or bend them like in a horse stance in a strong base (e.g. like in ju-jutsu/jiu-jitsu), or use the leg to sweep through uke's leg (e.g. like in Judo). Just an observation. The major difference, IMO, is you will see that he deals a lot more with multiple attacks (instead of a single punch or kick). From this you might observe that proficiency in the use of the parry, slap block, and smother is critical. Also delivering multiple strikes at different power levels in combinations will be demonstrated (e.g. the full power strikes are complemented with lesser powered strikes). Hope this helps.
Sure I'll bite Besides, I'm all for shoptalk. When I do it though, I don't "root" at all. If by rooting, you're referring to extra "pressure" that comes to the legs that is. Also chikara, or rather bujutsu teki chikara is important, but in the end, its not that either... You try to take that out of the equation. If somone gives you 50 units of power its like you respond with negative 50 (inside yourself). There's a couple of articles here on Aikiweb describing some of the stuff we do, mind you this is only entry level stuff, reffering to the upper "cross" in the chest, and less about the tanden: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10763 Exercises outlined in part 2: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10764 Sounds like good "#$t though. I won't say that none of the arts have it, but I just wanted to get down to the foundational skills that come before timing, strategy etc... Seems to me its that core/foundation building　that a lot of people skimp on.
Yup! I can see what you mean. I know that I constantly tell the students to maintain kamae. As you say that kamae they are maintaining might be pants.So it back to basic alignment of the spine etc.Moving the whole body as a unit true. Never moving one leg at a time as in plodding. I discussed this on another thread martial arts of aikido training.Separating limbs when in action, another common mistake. Shall read it in mor edepth later. I am off to training and Mrs koyo is yelling that I should eat some food before I go. Great post I look forward to reading it again. regards koyo
Upyu, that's a lot to read so I'll have to get back on the majority of it. But from what I did read, I see the things mentioned as very important. In fact, the knowledge put in just the little that I read included things that I learned about from different people all put into one place. For instance, the principle of independent motion I learned from Tai Chi, and the idea of not telegraphing intentions by not moving the upper body before striking I learned from karate. etc. Thank you for posting.
KAMAE In the early years of training late 50s earlt 60s we had a number of solo exersises to develop proper kamae. A few of us were chosen to be fukushidoin (translates as pioneers)so we got quite a lot of personal training. A bokken would be slipped down the rear of the collar of our kit and thrust into the belt.Then another belt tied criss cross across the chest to secure the bokken in place. Then we had to perforn happo undo moving from the same spot in eight directions maintaining an erect spine and moving the body as a unit. Any loss of posture or balance and the bokken dug into your spine.happo undo has you sliding one foot forward and drawing up the rear foot while raising the handblades forward and out retaining the natural curve of the arm . It was stressed never to move one foot at a time (as in plodding) but to move from the hips and maintain about shoulder width between the feet and always move in triangular posture. The arms were "thrust out and up" but never "away from the body as in overextending.It was torture.Breathing exercises were introduce including poweful kiai and short sharp strikes and thrust again done alone from happo undo. I shall put myself on the spot here. Below is a photo from a demo (so not posed) I cosider this to be proper kamae. Even though I have just entered and executed quite a powerful technique i have maintained my natural kama. This could be considered "rooted" (not stagnant) centered (I hate that word) but capable of movement in "eight directions" (all directions) regards koyo edit I deliberately did not read upyu's post again so as to give a truer picture of my own understanding at this moment.But I hope to learn from the discussion.
Nice! I spent about a year doing leg raising exercises with a staff across my back to emphasize stability in the "upper cross" in the sternum. Over the years, the quality of that solo exercise changes and the stability sinks lower and lower from my experience. I think the kind of solo training you mentioned is what's sorely lacking these days in a lot of the TMAs and that many only regard them as a formality that needs to be done in order to get to the "good" stuff of throwing people around. The shizentai you have in the pic looks golden Do you do any solo training to manipulate the spine and perinial area? A lot of our conditioning is grounded in long weapons work as well, particularly spear.
Solo exercises would include the maaaany thousands of suburi (single cuts,thrusts,strikes and sweeps with the ken and jo) I had to endure around two and a half year of suburi before being allowed to train in kata and partner practice.While other students were allowed to "progress" much faster. Of course I lacked the discipline and snuck away for extra training with kendoka friends. I find the jo an excellent training weapon since I feel it is more veratile cutting striking like a sword thrusting and striking like a spear and sweeping like a halbred. The major fault I must correct in the jo is when it is used like a spear the student tends to elongate his posture which changes from natural kamae to a stance with the weight diplaced from the centre and the body tending to lean forward to "take advantage" (incorrectly) of the extra length of the jo. (particularly against sword) Maintaining the strong (sunk?) posture during weapons training particularly at spead is another good exercise. Another point I cannot make strongly enough is the EXERCISES in aikido against grasps to the wrist. These are NOT techniques they are exercises in tai sabaki (alignment of the body) and the alignment must be minimal not the large exagerrated spins turns an gyrations which pass for aikido movement. Despite what countless people say aikido is NOT a circular art. It is triangular and direct. The circles you "see" are caused in the attacker By powerful triangular entry. Not a good example but you can see in the photo of jo technique that although it is quite fast and covering quite an amount of ground. Solid kamae has been maintained.Since kamae ALWAYS has mind and body as one then I "should" be calm and aware even during rapid movement. If my kamae is sound I may enter to either side of Chris' attack. I should not "make a choice" but enter naturally. regards koyo regards koyo
*Reposting my post from the other thread cuz I'm a lazy <person> ********************* Koyo, I saw your post and wanted to give you a thought out response since it seems you know some stuff, but seem to be missing other basic skills (and I don't mean this in an in your face way.) That being said, there's a quick litmus test you can do to see if we're on the same page (In which case I'll probably be made to eat the words I just said ) Pushout Exercise: http://www.badongo.net/vid/197241 Stand in this position, and have the person with their hands out to hold you down. This exercise is easy if the person has huge tight shoulder muscles and you have a good structure, so to really make it challenging, you may want to try to find someone that's bigger than you but has soft shoulder muscles/pecs. If you get a chance to try this exercise out let me know. For us it's the basis of generating power.
