Resistance Testing of Your Art

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Matt_Bernius, May 15, 2005.

  1. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    the BOLDED statements are usually the points i'm trying to make.
    if you get stuck on multiple opponents, noting will help you short of a weapon.

    name a few places that you will be in trouble that you don't want to grapple. just friday i was forced to grapple on gravel and pavement, there was broken glass in the gravel, and i have a few not so pretty cuts, but nothing spectatular. and i much prefer those few cuts to the alternative. Grappling in the situation allowed me to control it.

    if you want to stay on your feet the do so by all means, but you must know how to survive on the ground or you WILL be beaten on it, and everyone has to face it eventually.
    trust me, an armbar is most definately a fight ender, as is a well placed knee or even a punch for that matter. knowing how to clinch is essential when fighting other strikers. If wing chun is what you want, then do it. but to my knowladge it covers no ground and no clinch and very limited striking.
     
  2. LiaoRouxin

    LiaoRouxin Valued Member

    Ving Tsun Martial Art Institute
    68-76 Hennessy Road, Wan Chai, Hong Kong (China)

    Have fun with that.

    "It would take at least 4 years to gain a blackbelt in Wing Chun, working hard and leaving little time for any other martial art.

    I guess that "Eagle Claw" would have similar stringent requirements.

    So we're looking at 8 years."
    I began Eagle Claw when I was four, Muay Thai when I was eight. I started taking Wing Chun two hours a day, 6 days a week when I moved to Alaska three years ago. When I moved to Hong Kong for five months I completed the requirements to test, having attended class at various schools in Wan Chai and Kowloon, notably with Yuen Yim Keung and Dou Mak's schools and the Chin Woo in Nathen Avenue. As my parents did not make me attend school during that time I was able to train for several hours a day. After I moved to my birthplace of Singapore I continued training for a while in Wing Chun, but stopped instead to focus on Muay Thai and grappling. Judo was an outlet for some of the things I learned in Sambo, as so far as I know there's only a few Sambo teachers in Singapore and not many tournament opportunities. I've pretty much suspended my Russian martial art training to focus on competing in Muay Thai and Judo, but this July I'm taking several weeks off of school to go to Moscow where I plan to resume training. It was quicker for me to gain proficiency in Wing Chun due to several factors: 1) I spent more hours training it per day than most. 2) I already had more than 10 years of background in another martial art, which, while dissimilar to Wing Chun made learning some of the concepts easier, and took care of the physical conditioning. 3) All of my early Wing Chun instruction was in the form of private instruction, so I was able to progress along the syllabus more quickly

    "Why is "enough" power not enough, why do you need "as much". How hard do you have to hit someone to break their nose?"

    Your question was "enough power to damage somebody", not "enough power to end the fight". I answered your question and apparently not the implied question.

    "Didn't you address this issue when you did "sticking legs" training."

    No. Apparently not well enough to make me accurate 100% of the time. Clearly I must be training wrong, right? Sticky legs is a fine exercise but even so it's not the same, it's still more static than a fight would be.

    "I can see how superior speed would do it, although I thought that as you were an instructor you would have been faster than a student. However, if done correctly I don't understand how a bong sau could be overcome by the force of a punch, as it is able to redirect the force of the most powerful blow, with minimal exertion, that's the whole point of it I thought?"
    In order for a bong sao to work optimally, it has to be timed perfectly. I did not time it perfectly. The person who threw this punch is very accomplished at punching and I don't believe myself to be any faster than he is with my arms. In this case my bong sao was thrown at the wrong moment and too low. I would have been better off using a paksao.

    "Surely Wing Chun practitioners also recognise this, why do you think that they don't realise how its possible to learn how to block their punches whilst in a real fight with them, and keep allowing themselves to be beaten in chi sau with such innefective techniques?"

    Your sentence structure confuses me. Forgive me because English is not my first language. I am not saying that Wing Chun people do not know this, however I am saying that Wing Chun people are taught in this manner and so they are apt to use punches like this. Wing Chun punches can be very effective, of this I have no doubt, largely against people more farmiliar with the punches of boxing. The straight punch has no direct counterpart in boxing, however once its devices are known it becomes easy to block. And since in Wing Chun we're taught to chain punch so that each punch lands in the same area over and over again, most Wing Chun fighters will indeed repeat roughly the same punch throughout the course of the fight. This is a shame and a grave limitation of the style, which was corrected by the addition of boxing techniques to Jeet Kune Do.

    Obviously, in the future there are things I would do differently in using Wing Chun exclusively. This is my first experience using Wing Chun alone against other martial arts, so I havent exactly explored all of the potential ins and outs. My main problem with it is that no suitable ground game and grappling defence was taught. If Wing Chun people would take even a month of wrestling or jujutsu, they would learn how to escape a takedown the proper way so they could stay on their feet more often. I think any Wing Chun school that includes proper grappling in its curriculum will certainly be street ready, but in my opinion, as it stands, stand up wing chun is not enough.
     
  3. 7thlevel

    7thlevel Valued Member

    Hi LiaoRouxin , Im surprised by some of your comments above , you say 'The lack of any hook punches made Wing Chun punching combinations easier to defend by experienced stand up people'

    I dont know how much of the complete system you have trained but the chum kui form has the uppercut punch ,albeit much tighter than a boxing uppercut, it is very good when in close doing combinations. While the bui tze form has the hook punch again a much tighter hook than a boxing one.
    So if you have completed the 3 hand forms you should have three punches to drill and use in combo's! best to train them like a boxer would in fast fluid combinations.
    You also mention ' It was much more difficult to generate power in a Wing Chun punch than in a boxing/Muay Thai punch' ,well this is probally down to your training ,you should be able to generate power with your wing chun punches aswell as anyother kind. It does take several years though to make them as effective as say a boxers straight punch! The key is keeping everything relaxed til impact and aiming through the opponent. Nothing slows a punch more than tensing before impact! stay chill'd :cool:

    last thing il comment on is 'I was unable to make enough stopping power with the bongsao, but the paksao was easily my most effective defensive tool.'

    As you probally know the bong sao isnt a 'block' it is a redirection and is one of the worst techniques in wing chun when you are experienced! One of very few techniques which involve lifting the elbow and thus breaking the golden rule of wing chun's elbow positioning, and it is a transitional technique thus it should be changed immediaterly to a better one combined with a strike of some sort. Im not surpised you found pak sao much more effective it is much faster technique which unlike the bong sao doesnt leave you compromised momentarily. In fact I trained years back with a guy called milan prosenica who was one of very few who tried wing chun (actually wing tsun) in the ring ,he had to change many things do get it to work in the ring when wearing gloves and with rules but pak sao was one of his favorite techniques esp against boxers with very fast handwork.
     
  4. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Sorry Matt... Looks like some people couldnt stop themselves, and this was going so well :cry:
     
  5. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Matt I feel for you... Tekkengod did you read the first post at all?

    Im not entirely convinced that other training methods do exist that are as effective as full contact competitions but I was quite looking forward to hearing peoples opinions and then bam by posting the above comments another thread has once again almost descended into a competition vs. non competition thread.

    Anyway... TeJitsuDo you said "I've started to feel that Taiji "Push-Hands" is a good method of training with resistance (well, at least the way we do it :p)" but your description of Push Hands sounds pretty standard to me? What makes the way you do it make you feel its effective resistance training? Is the contact level upped more than usual and are outside techniques (such as hooks) allowed?

    LiaoRouxin... I am sure you can understand people being skepitical about an 18 year old Instructor in not one but 2 arts who also claims a background in several other frankly rather unrelated arts (Systema-Muay Thai for example). From your answers it sounds to me like you know your stuff and if youve been training since you were so young you could indeed be very good, afterall a competing 18 year old Thai fighter in Thailand would easily be good enough to teach Muay Thai (but then he would have dedicated his entire life to one art I suppose). From my experience in Wing Chun I would say that LiaoRouxin has been pretty much spot on in her comments, in an ideal world sticky leg training would allow you to always hit the knees but in real life thats rather unlikely especially if the other person is moving (i.e. the fight has already started). On another topic and one more related to this thread what do you Wing Chun guys think about Chi Sau for resistance training? Is it a replacement for sparring or something to be combined with it? Should it be practiced full contact or with less resistance? What about outside techniques such as boxing style hook punches should these be allowed?
     
  6. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Sorry, but my experience of other peoples methods of push-hands (similar or otherwise) is limited :eek:

    We allow takedowns and some ground "fighting". The contact level is still light-nil.
     
  7. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Rolling on the floor, grappling with my assailant, cutting myself to pieces with broken glass is not what I would regard as controlling the situation. I would definitely be putting that in the category of fights that I'd lost.

    I note that you quoted and highlighted
    If you train hard with MMA, that day you will be "the man", because you will have spent your entire training gearing up for just that scenario.
    from my previous post. This changes the meaning somewhat as you missed out the qualifying statement
    Sometimes on "the street" you may get into a 1:1 fight with somebody on their own, in a place where you can be on the ground without risking injury from broken glass or passing cars and where there are no potential weapons in reach, and were somebody will step in if you decide that you've had enough.
    which does change its meaning somewhat. If you ever get into a fight in the above scenario, then that day you will probably be "the man".

    I'll repeat the whole basis of the point I was making that you seem to have missed again.

    I have no interest in learning any martial art that has been diluted for competitions with rules that in any way restrict the range of things that I can do to defend myself and switches the emphasis of training from the most effective techniques to the most effective techniques within the rules.

    You've managed to edit two quotes from my post that change their meanings.
    The second one being

    I have no doubt that UFC fighters are quite formidable opponents and would eat most martial artists alive.
    You missed out.
    That is because they are professional competitive fighters, I am counting on not getting into street fight with a professional competitive fighter, whether I do BJJ or not and train seven days a week I'm still going to get my ass kicked. The same goes for a professional boxer.

    I forgot to mention that they would have to be a similar weight, to reproduce the sports environment. This is not an acknowledgement of MMA's superiority over other martial arts, it is a recognition that if somebody is a professional they have a natural flair and fighting is their profession. Of course they would beat most martial artists who may train a couple of times a week. Most professional sumo wrestlers would do the same, thats not a good case for advocating Sumo for self defence. If somebody trains specifically for the above scenario, then they will have an advantage in that scenario. I'm not too bothered about getting attacked in a fighting cage, because I have no plans to get in one.

    Is MMA a martial art or is it a religion. It does seem that MMAers appear to have an unfounded evangelical zeal for their sport. Different people have different requirements from their martial arts. Different martial arts have their own strengths and weaknesses (inlcuding BJJ). Why do you think that Royce Gracie spent time learning Wing Chun techniques from Samuel Kwok? This little corner of the forum is for those with an interest in Kung Fu, why do the MMAers feel so compelled to come into the debates chanting their "no good in UFC" mantra?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2005
  8. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Getting back on topic, for pressure in breaking possibly you could have:

    Moving borads
    Money on the break (Miss the break and loose £100)
    Status on the break (Miss the rbeak and get demoted in belt)
    Noise as a distraction
    Large numbers of people watching
    Vigorous physical exercise to give you the shakes before the break (This may still be used in the millitary, not sure, when practiscing marksmanship, hope Im not perpertuating crap here though)
    Physicla punishment for missing(Get a kick in the gut from your instructore, safe but painfull)

    I guess that some of the above could apply to a few other things as well

    In self defence make sure that the attackers are always very aggresive at higher levels, have them grab hard enough to hurt and have them throw punches that will KO you if they land, also have them act aggresively, verbally abusing you and pushing you around before the grab, when you apply the technique have them resist the technique as best they can, in fact turn it into sparring but with the attacker starting with something from your self defence curriculum and seeing if you can beat them off, have a thord party observe and re-set the fight if it becomes normal sparring.

    Edit: @ Psin and Tekkengod, why dont you start a spearate thread for that discussion rather than talking this of topic?
     
  9. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Sorry, I'm new(ish) to the forum and was getting bored with the same point being repeatedly made in threads in the kung fu forum. I guess that this is old ground and was covered many times previously, but I just had to rant and get it off my chest. There's no point in starting a new thread as I've said pretty much everything I've got to say on the subject.

    Back on topic, I think that there's a value in taking a knock every now and then just to get used to the experience and aren't completely stunned when it happens. However, I would question the value of artificial situations to create fear and an adrenalin rush, simply because the "victims" will know at the back of their minds that nothing too bad is going to happen.

    The army do about as good a job to simulate life threatening situations during their training, much better than anything that could be done in a MA school. However, this doesn't stop soldiers feeling extreme terror when in the battlefield. They rely on repeated drills that mean that the soldier doesn't really have to think about what he is doing, he just does it automatically. I think in MA its the same thing when preparing for a "street" life threatening situation. You probably will still be scared but the responses should be so deeply ingrained that you use your MA without having to think about it.

    I've been sent on a number of "breakaway" courses from work that use the same approach that you describe, and I feel that they tend to give individuals a false sense of confidence, that dissapears once they face authentic threatening situations.
     
  10. Talyn

    Talyn Reality Hacker

    LiaoRouxin has hit the nail on the head with her methodology of testing I think. The only addition I would have made was that at some point, say one of the trials, it would be against a weapon (a short stick probably), to test the style for it's effectiveness against an armed opponent. But other than that, well done for a very professional, if not a little violent, and successful (though that could be disputed by those too arrogant to want to see the truth) experiment. Would be nice to see how Wing Chun fares against some other arts as well, and perhaps see what happens when the shoe's on-the-other-foot, so to speak (i.e, if you were using another art and they used Wing Chun).

    ... In the short time I trained in Wing Chun I wasn't too impressed (though I didn't go for long because College started demanding attention like a little child suffering from ADHD), but I will probably give it another shot after my exams are over (three weeks, so not long to wait :p ). Also got to find a BJJ school somewhere... I'll have to re-create your experiment in a few years time ;) I had wanted to do something like it a while ago, but it was in no way practical because I don't know many people from other styles.
     
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Just a quick note for Psin :
    This place is a legit WC school here in Hong Kong.
    There are many people from one of the bigger security firms here that train there (many of the door men that work for Signal 8 security - both Chinese and Western). It's definitely not McDojo. I believe the sifu's full name is 'Cliff' Ao Yeun - he is bald headed, wears a goatee and is about as fit as they come - and according to friends that train in CMA - well respected in HK. He used to have 'glue-up' poster all over Central district when he first opened.

    I dunno if they've got a website - if they don't it wouldn't be surprising.
    Many things that have websites in the rest of the world don't for some reason have one if they're based in Hong Kong. lol. Go figure. Besides, having a web presence is in no way some kind of validation of your school. Look at all the friggin' McDojos that have them. :eek:

    As for the other schools that LiaoRouxin mentioned. Yes they also exist. There are several in Kowloon on Nathan Rd. within walking distance of each other. They're in Yau Ma Tai district - I pass them everyday when I walk from Mongkok down to the Tsim Tsa Tsui - Kowloon Park to train. :D

    edit:
    ahh what a little bit of searching can do.. yeah his western name was Cliff. :D

    Ving Tsun Martial Art Institute
    4/F, Flat C, Sun Hey Mansion, 68-76 Hennessy Road, Wan Chai, HK
    Tel: 25788928
    Contact: Cliff K.M. Au Yeung
    Notes: Timetable - Mon, Wed, Fri 7:00-10:00 P.M.; Sat 3:30-6:00 P.M.; Sun 10:00 A.M.-12:00 noon.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2005
  12. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Sometimes I'll practice with my boxing Sihing (he's a Golden Glove), who uses several boxing formats to help me train.

    One method is for me to practice my aim, speed and power is to hold out hitting pads, and be constantly moving back or up. And also, at random intervals, he'll strike out at me with them, and I either have to block or evade, dodge, etc.

    It really helps with reaction, timing, and speed, as well as the ability to respond to sudden attacks.
     
  13. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Ok... So it seems like sparring continues to emmerge as an important part of pressure testing (great responses btw LiaoRouxin and 19thLohan). Staying away from competition for the moment let me ask everyone a few more questions:

    1. Do you encorporate sparring against people from outside of your school?

    2. If so, how do you formulate the "rules" under which you work.

    3. If not, do you attempt to simulate different attack styles within your school?

    4. On the subject of simulated breaks (19thLohan brings up good points) how do you handle things once a break is set up. Do you "lock out" your opponent? Do you show the lock and move on. Do you separate and reset? What are the pluses and minuses for each?

    5. Building off of the last question: what level of cooperation occurs within pressure testing? Should your opponents acknowledge if you've simulated an eye strike (ie. covering thier eyes for a moment since the typical reaction to extremem pain/trauma is to touch/protect thhe damaged area?

    Beyond this type of sparring, are their other resitance training tools that you are using?

    Again, let's try and keep off the street discussion for the moment. But let's also try to be creative about how we test supposedly "untestable" defenses.

    - Matt
     
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    This is what happens in Muay Thai pretty much most of the time your going through you pad work. Being on the pad side and not the striking side allows you to see how stuff is being thrown and the kind of power it's getting thrown with. In the more free form pack work I find that it mimics very closely the movements of an actual ring fight.
     
  15. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I totally agree. It's one of my favorite partner exercises as it give both people a good tactical workout.

    And it's great to get hit in a controlled way exactly for the reasons that you mention.

    (Plus on the sneaky side it really lets you start to track you're partners ticks and look for precontact cues).

    - Matt
     
  16. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    I'm so lucky to have a boxing expert work with me, that knows kung fu very well too. :D
     
  17. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Not in class. I've been to many san shou and shuai chiao tournements to fight different types of fighters and to fight people who haven't gotten used to my favorite techniques but again certain techniques can't be used. I only practise those in the schools I've trained at and informally with friends who have studied other styles.


    Sparring covers the head on stuff pretty well. We have a few different drills for more self defense oriented material. We put someone in the middle of a circle. Sometimes blindfolded. different people take turns grabbing the person in the center from differnt angles with different holds and the person in the center has to react by feel and defend themself. Another drill is to give everyone in the circle a number. This time there is no blind fold so strikes and grabs can be used. some one calls out numbers and the person with that number attacks. The people surrounding the guy in the center move in a circle around him so even if the same number gets called the attack would come from a different angle. There are no strikes from behind. If you don't see something coming your not going to defend it no matter how rough and rugged your training is. A third drill is two attackes vs. one defender. In this drill the attackeers must attack with commitment and not hit and pull back like in sparring. People come up with different strategies for how to deal with this situation. Personaly I try to keep one of the attackers between me and the other attacker as much as possible so I'm only fighting one of them at a time. In the second and third drill we kept it light contact in the general class but geared up and went at it in the advanced class.

    It depends on the type of break. An arm break wouldn't put anyone down so it was encouraged to follow up with a couple shots before breaking off the attack. It's natural for the other guy to keep defending himself but if he acts like he's not acknowledging the break the instructor would step in and point it out. With something like a leg break that would put you down we didn't pretend to flop for continuation we just broke off and reset. We work on follow ups during drills for those techniques. Most of the follow ups could be done off of various other take downs that could be done in sparring so you would get plenty of chances to practise those techniques in live training.

    In the crane style I spoke of the sparring was somewhat chi sua like. It was done barehand and open hand with full contact. Even with the sports gogles on you usualy get a reaction from a guy getting hit in the eyes that allows you to get in a follow up shot or two. No matter how much you spar you never get completly used to something hitting that close to your eye. Your natural reactions are incredibly hard to over come in that senario. If someone did ingnore it and keep fighting like nothing happened the instructor would usualy hault the match and point it out.
     
  18. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Great responses 19th! Come on everybody else... sound off! How are you "keeping it real?"

    - Matt
     
  19. LiaoRouxin

    LiaoRouxin Valued Member

    Heya, good points you people make. I'm going to try to address them before I move on to Matt's new questions:

    " dont know how much of the complete system you have trained but the chum kui form has the uppercut punch ,albeit much tighter than a boxing uppercut, it is very good when in close doing combinations. While the bui tze form has the hook punch again a much tighter hook than a boxing one.
    So if you have completed the 3 hand forms you should have three punches to drill and use in combo's! best to train them like a boxer would in fast fluid combinations."

    If I recall you're referring to about the fourtieth or so movement of Stabbing Fingers, right? I know many schools replace various things in that form, so correct any inconsistencies I may make. What is sometimes refered to as the Wing Chun hook, sometimes refered to as a Tiger Strike, or any number of various names, I've never found to be anything worth pursuing because its limitations in both power and range. I don't know its history but it always appeared to me to be an addition made to Wing Chun to compensate for lacking a hook, but in keeping with Wing Chun principles, which sortof makes sense as at the time of the creation of Wing Chun there was only the first form (if I remember my history). I never really spent much time training it because it seemed to pale in comparison with the punches I had learned from Muay Thai. Perhaps that is something I can strive to work on now and I'll get back to you guys on how well I think it to work then in a couple months.

    "You also mention ' It was much more difficult to generate power in a Wing Chun punch than in a boxing/Muay Thai punch' ,well this is probally down to your training ,you should be able to generate power with your wing chun punches aswell as anyother kind. It does take several years though to make them as effective as say a boxers straight punch! The key is keeping everything relaxed til impact and aiming through the opponent. Nothing slows a punch more than tensing before impact! stay chill'd "

    You're absolutely right about the Wing Chun theory of power. However, a Wing Chun punch will never be as powerful as the equivalent boxing punch for one reason: commitment to the punch. In Wing Chun the commitment comes from the arms, shoulders, and hips. In a boxing punch it's arms, shoulders, hips, legs and waist. The effect is that there's more of a projection to the boxer's punch. Try it a few times if you can find somebody who knows a little boxing to show you the proper form, use the straight punch from the rear hand position and pivot your foot at the same time you throw the punch. Then compare it with the same punch without the pivot, but with the hip movement. The boxer commits more to the punch, and as a result hits harder. Then comes the argument that this commitment, and sometimes the Thai roundhouse has been used as an example at the same time, leads to too great an exploitable opening. I disagree because someone skilled at defending themselves won't let it open them up very much, and would be very good at defending a counterattack. This ties in with my belief that the philosophy of Wing Chun is sound, but driven home to an absurd point, where it ceases to be practical and becomes dogmatic.

    "As you probally know the bong sao isnt a 'block' it is a redirection and is one of the worst techniques in wing chun when you are experienced! One of very few techniques which involve lifting the elbow and thus breaking the golden rule of wing chun's elbow positioning, and it is a transitional technique thus it should be changed immediaterly to a better one combined with a strike of some sort. Im not surpised you found pak sao much more effective it is much faster technique which unlike the bong sao doesnt leave you compromised momentarily. In fact I trained years back with a guy called milan prosenica who was one of very few who tried wing chun (actually wing tsun) in the ring ,he had to change many things do get it to work in the ring when wearing gloves and with rules but pak sao was one of his favorite techniques esp against boxers with very fast handwork"

    You're absolutely right about bongsao, but I don't agree with the elbow lifting so much. I think that it is a holdover from more traditional CMA days with more traditional blocking that was set up to more closely correspond with Wing Chun principles of deflection, rather than stopping. It's also a bad technique for beginners to use, because many in more active situations let it hang too loose and curve inward, instead of outward. Pak Sao is all but identical to a boxing technique I've seen many times, so it's no wonder it works in the ring. Barehanded it has even more applications, because a pak sao can be used to redirect an attack while going to the blindside, and once on the blindside the very hand that did the offset can backfist to the face.

    Very good points you raised, I'm going to look into the two techniques you mentioned and see what I can make of them.


    CKava, thank you for your kind words. Let me attempt to answer your question
    "what do you Wing Chun guys think about Chi Sau for resistance training? Is it a replacement for sparring or something to be combined with it? Should it be practiced full contact or with less resistance? What about outside techniques such as boxing style hook punches should these be allowed?"
    Chisao is probably one of the most brilliant things in Wing Chun. It is by no means ever a replacement for sparring, however it is certainly a great addition and supplement. The merit of chisao is that it teaches how to stay relaxed as things come at you, as well as it greatly improves reaction and sensitivity. Many people dismiss sensitivity in the sporting community, but I think it's very important. Chisao is very much about teaching body mechanics, and it lets the practitioner focus on everything their opponent's body is doing, so even the smallest movement becomes a telegraph. I don't think it should be practiced full contact, that should be saved for sparring. Chisao's purpose is vastly different and there's no need to exert any force in it.

    Talyn, thank you for your comments and I plan on expanding and refining the test in the future. It's very unscientific and innacurate at best, but I think it's more accurate than normal sparring or competition.


    Slip, you're from Xianggang? :D <3 A new smell every 5 feet


    Matt:
    "1. Do you encorporate sparring against people from outside of your school?"
    The closest to attending school, since I've suspended my sambo training for the moment, is judo or wushu. Obviously my wushu, as a high school and demonstration class, has no sparring, judo certainly does but among judoka. I'm also not a regular at the dojo. On my own, however, I have a great many people whom I train with and many are from styles quite different from my own.
    "2. If so, how do you formulate the "rules" under which you work."
    Five rules we operate under usually: Judo rules, Thai rules (with or without throws), submission rules, "qinna rules" (it's not so much sparring as active testing of limited joint locks. It basically works like kickboxing rules with the winner being decided by applying the lock successfully) or mixed combat rules.

    "3. If not, do you attempt to simulate different attack styles within your school?"

    In Alaska, my trainer often would try to switch up techniques. It's how I learned to defend non-wing chun blows with wing chun defense. When I briefly taught as an assistant at a school I used different styles on occasion to keep the brats on their toes (and knees, or fetal positions :p)

    "4. On the subject of simulated breaks (19thLohan brings up good points) how do you handle things once a break is set up. Do you "lock out" your opponent? Do you show the lock and move on. Do you separate and reset? What are the pluses and minuses for each?"

    I try to initiate the lock, then make a small contact to represent the break. It's not accurate, but it's the best we can do without hurting anybody. Sometimes we'll seperate and reset, sometimes we'll continue whatever match we were doing, with the person effected acting the part of the broken limb :p

    "5. Building off of the last question: what level of cooperation occurs within pressure testing? Should your opponents acknowledge if you've simulated an eye strike (ie. covering thier eyes for a moment since the typical reaction to extremem pain/trauma is to touch/protect thhe damaged area?"

    The more realistic their response, the better for the sake of the exercise. It helps to demonstrate that sometimes moves that you think would end a fight, won't. Someone who was jabbed in the eye may not see for a while, but they may still swing around until they regain vision or whatever. I have seen that happen a lot in Thai fighting, where men will try to blind the other man with their chins and scratch the eye. The other person is at a disadvantage for sure, but can certainly react.



    Great topic, I think I have the opportunity to learn a lot here
     
  20. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    So do I and thanks for your contributions.

    Since I've been asking lots of questions, I should also give my response.

    I did competitions for a short time. And they ranged from inschools (as the BJJ school I was at) to full contact stick fighting (an East Coast, US regional comp). As I've stated in previous posts I don't do that anymore. However, I do regularly attend different open sparring classes at various Martial Arts schools in the area. So that's where I get most of my flight time against other systems and approaches.

    Of course when you are the guest you're usually at the mercy of the other folk's rules. However in most cases I'll talk with my oponent before a match to go over what they are comfortable with and try and work with the losest set of rule across the widest ranges.

    I'm a firm believer in setting and moving on. We typically do try to simulate immediate reactions (ie: hands going to the eyes) and in that respect will at times spar cooperatively. However, we also will not give techniques or locks.

    I will tool up to full contact, but only with a select group of people. You have to earn my trust (and I have to earn yours) before I fully bang. In cases of full contact I will put on basic gear (mouth guard, light gloves, sometimes a cup... or sometimes High Gear suits if we're going to get really frisky... head and joint gear always for stick work). But usually the less padding, the better.

    So come on folks, how do the rest of you keep it real? If you can talk about this in a coherent way, then perhaps you can articulate an alternate view to competition being the end all and be all.

    - Matt
     

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