Resistance is futile

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Gotcha, but did you read the several times where I explained that it has to be trained, experienced, and understood to be rendered ineffective? People read what they want and interpret how they feel. I have said on many occasions that the way you see most people training in the armhanging compliant way is only good as a beginner or when learning a technique and things must be practiced, pressure tested, and more to become useful. I have also vocally advocated competition, sparring, and pressure testing, as well as incorporated all of the above into my own training. I've also been in fights and worked in fields that required some knowledge and experience of physicality. Yet, I am saying that there is something beyond that, though I know many will scoff and refuse to believe that it is possible. The first guy who said he wanted to talk to people not there in front of him was thought to be cuckoo but now we all have phones.

    Resistance is futile when you are dealing with a master of these arts, but for most of the people out there, retracting your arm or moving at normal speed is enough.:rolleyes:
     
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    How many people have you killed or decapitated with ninja weapons fighting ninja style? Or how many decapitations or deadly attacks with weapons has anyone in Ninjitsu done in recent history for that matter?

    How many times have you used throwing stars in a real fight?

    If you haven't, then you don't know how effective you would be, no matter how highly trained you are.

    You can surmise, guess, hope, deduct, but you don't know.

    Because it hasn't been tested.

    And if real Ninjitsu practitioners are still running around assassinating people- well yikes! But you aren't claiming that, are you?:eek:

    Yes, I am one of those reading this thread and wondering why the "too deadly to spar" going on is getting a relatively light pass here compared to others who say the same thing about their styles or practices.

    I mean no disrpespect to you, but I can't help but feel there is a bit of a double standard going on with some members here. And if they are giving you the benefit of the doubt on this, perhaps they shouldn't be so harsh on others saying the same thing about WC or other arts.
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I ask you though, how do you spar with assassination tactics and techniques? Simulate, practice, etc but spar?

    I don't know who was criticizing WC but let me reiterate, some aspects of the Takamatsuden can be practiced in that way. However, the idea isn't a match, it's an ambush. It's not a fair and sportsmanlike match, it is get rid of the other guy in the most efficient and less damaging to yourself way. The samurai might've had their hangups but they weren't above using deception, traps, ganging up on the weaker, and other ways of getting the best of their opponents, and these arts reflect that.
     
  4. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    It is only because the ninjutsu sub forum is treated as a special case on MAP and moderated differently. People have learned to dance around what they want to say here, unfortunately I seem to be a slow learner. Beware though, if you cast too many aspersions at ninjutsu you will be accused of trolling and risk being hit with the ban stick.
     
  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oh, that's what you were referring to. That's ye ole ninja curse, even if they can't beat you, they will get you in the end with a shuriken to the forehead.:vanish:

     
  6. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    They should and have for some time, actually. You learn more from doing it live once than talking about it or miming it fifty times.
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Hold the line, say what? They have? Conducting real life shootouts with cops shooting at other cops with real bullets and shotguns?!:jawdrop: Or do you mean simulated shootouts on a range with popup targets, drilling with simulations, and things of that ilk?

    True, less civilians would probably get shot by stray fire that way.

    Again though, studies have shown that visualization can be a very effective way to learn. I remember reading once about an American prisoner of war in Vietnam who taught himself how to play the guitar that way and another who worked on his golf game. :dunno:You never know(that is until you do).
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  8. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Yep. Some use pellet guns or lasers but the big thing now is simunition.
    Real guns, real cartridges. Now the bullet is made of plastic and filled with a marking dye and the velocities aren't high enough to kill you, but it's real gunpowder and you're shooting/being shot at by real, thinking people who will attempt to surprise and misdirect you.
    Force on force, ambushes, arrests, building searches, any scenario you can come up with, you can do it live.

    Really the only difference at short range (where the majority of engagements happen for police and civilians) is that the sim rounds don't penetrate. Obviously this can have an impact on the mindset but (again, obviously) far less than static training. Get into longer ranges and you'll have accuracy and travel speed issues that aren't entirely realistic.
     
  9. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Sim rounds are a freaking blast. I hate the masks they made us wear in the Marine Corps though, those things fog up in two breaths.
     
  10. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Same. You'd think they could just throw some gas masks on. Those don't fog nearly as bad IME. I use one for exactly that (with pellets, sim guns are expensive) and have never had an issue. Maybe the eyepieces don't hold up so well.
     
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Real men just grow their eyebrows out and beards to catch the rounds.
     
  12. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Just for the record this is pretty much how the buj is trained

    If you look at the prigression through say Takagi Yoshin Ryu or kukishin den you'll see a progression from simple techniques through responding to counters to your techniques to free form
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I am just saying that this is the same argument some TMA's use. That you can't use some tactics in TMA so sparring isn't helpful. They say their art is too deadly and made for the street. That their style is made to quickly take someone out not have rounds. That Groin strikes, eye gouges, throat hits etc. aren't allowed in sparring so sparring is too limited to be effective in their style.

    You have been an active member longer than I have. Surely you have seen this argument elsewhere AND the extremely strong arguments for why many people feel this logic is faulty and detrimental to learning how to actually fight? I don't need to list those arguements here again, do I?

    I was just wondering why the people who so avidly speak up when this arguement comes up elsewhere are being relatively tame ore letting this slide here. It seemed a tad hypocritical.

    But Kave explained why - the ninjitsu forum rules bieng different and all. So my question has been answered.
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Ah, my dear aaradia, you aren't failing to see the logical fallacy of your argument are you?

    I have been a very vocal advocate for sparring, pressure testing, and even competition for the obvious reasons. However, that doesn't preclude me from understanding that certain things cannot and need not be sparred with to be effective.

    I spar and have competed(more for the fun and experience than any thought that it would make me tough or impervious to messing up in a real confrontation) and believe in pressure testing, but I know that the human mind, motivation, and many other factors must be considered and weighed when making assumptions about what might happen in a real life encounter. You definitely want to err on the side of preparedness, but you still have to realize that there is no 100% money guarantee when it comes to violent situations. One must use logic and a discerning mind instead of buying every argument that sounds right and feels right when determining what one is going to support.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  15. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    Removed
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    This.

    There is no logic behind your first paragraph and the conclusion you are trying to draw from it due to your second paragraph.

    Basically:

    1) You don't know if it will work if you don't test it(which leads you to believe that).

    2) If you test it it will work(which is about to be contradicted by 3).

    3) There are no magic bullets and nothing works all the time.

    So if 3) is correct and an accurate statement, 2) cannot be. Again, I won't disagree with erring on the side of preparedness(for example practicing clearing a jam under a simulated stressful situation after the basics of it have been learned), but realizing that just because something has been done in the past doesn't mean that it can be done again in the future. The other thing people have to realize is that just because you have never done something before, it is not logical or a truism to be believe that you will not be able to do it.
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Wow, that was quick, is he a ninja?:ninja1:
     
  18. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    While i understand where you are comming from that seems like black swan logic to me ( I.e if I see one black swan , I disprove the fact all swans are white)

    But yes, even tested techniques dont work all the time, but I have more confindence in the tested ones that seem to work most of the time against a resisting opponent. For example, kneeing someone in the clinch. This technique shows up in 90 percent of MMA matches that I watch, they are used againt opponents that dont want them used against them and are in fact Actively trying to stop them, and when the things that may effect them ( balance, timing , counters etc) are all at play. It is effective alot of the time, add to that I have seen knee strikes used in recordings of street brawls against oppents of varying size, weight and height. This makes me think that it has a possibility of being a usefull technique. It wont work everytime but at least I know it CAN work. Then look a technique with none of that behind it, all you have is someone word that it will work. It may do , but I trust what I see/ experience over something someone tells me.

    No nothing is guarenteed. You could drop a pencil and it could float upwards , but because I have seen it drop a few times. I am more confident it will drop.
     
  19. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    If by ninja you mean, idiot that posts before thinking then yes i am the top ninja, I am Hattori Hanzo and every character from Dead or alive rolled into one.
     
  20. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    How is testing techniques up for debate? If you don't test techniques in a love environment you don't know if they work in a live environment. That's just a scientific principle.
     

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