Requirement for Blackbelt = Teaching Ability?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by MaxG, Sep 8, 2005.


Should teaching capability be necessary for Black Belt?

  1. Yes

    23 vote(s)
  2. No

    33 vote(s)
  1. wild_pitch

    wild_pitch Melt The Guns!

    hmm i wonder what that means for me, our school does not have any belts past black. we only have 4 belts, yellow, orange, brown and black.
  2. Jointlock

    Jointlock Valued Member

    I took special care in making my post as unabrasive as possible. I am making an arguement for my side of this discussion. I did not resort to CAPS, or any name calling. I respect your experience and time in training, but it seems like you have a perpencity to belittle and dismiss peoples opinions just because you've been around longer. It is impossible to have a discussion with you, because you are only interested in telling people how it is. He who has a full cup has no room for more. My 15 years training maybe does not stack up to yours, but I have been around, and yes I am a special case 1st Dan.

    By the way, quick question for you. I was looking on your website last night and I noticed that you're a 6th dan in Sin Moo Hapkido. However, the certificate image that you have says that you were promoted to 5th Dan on April 25, 2004. Is there a misprint somewhere? For someone that's so die hard on telling people to spending the proper time in rank for their next grade, it seems odd that you had been promoted to 5th dan last year and now you're 6th.
  3. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    Why are we so determined to create timelines for instructors that never existed with the men who founded these arts.

    According to GM Suh,Bok Sup,now GM Ji han Jae started his Hapkido training in 1953 and ONE year later he opened his own school in affiliation with Choi.

    He left his studies with Choi and opened his own organization in 1956.

    So according to much written here,he never learned anything new and never progressed in his hapkido beyond those 3 years of learning,(which according to much written here would have made him ,"just out of diapers"

    Now Ji Han Jae was not a live in student of Choi he attended classes,which equalled several hours per week,when he opened his school he was not a master,(which today is 4th degree) he was certified as competent to instruct,(which I would say is equal to a Black Belt)

    I do not think that prior to his own school Ji Han Jae or any other stepped on the floor and instructed for Choi.

    Why do we assign these goals and restrictions on ourselves.

    Just as it should take 3-4 years to get a Black Belt,who says?
    Most of the GMs were Masters in 3-4 years and they did not live in and study 8 hours a day,they attended several classes a week of an hour or so.

    Stepping outside hapkido,Chuck Norris was a Black Belt in 8 months,Joe lewis was a 4th degree in 3 styles in 16 months.
    (Now I have asked both men why it takes so many years to reach Black Belt under them ,when they did it in much shorter time,the reply from both was that this is(and was) the time line set by others teaching these arts in the US)

    We are imposing restrictions and qualifications to save our positions and to have eternal students.

    How many current GMs stayed with their Master for a minimum of 11 years,to teach everything?

    The number of people who even study a form of self defense is 3-5 percent of the populace,of those who enter the schools only 1-3 percent of those reach Black Belt and of those 1-3 percent reach 2nd degree,and less and less stay on to reach Master level.

    We are creating a time table which never existed,for what reason?

    If you reach Black Belt ,which only 1-3 percent of students ever reach,you are found to have shown proficient knowledge of all techniques up to that point,so you should be able to instruct and teach to that level.
    (in schools Kids ,with a basic knowledge of a subject tutor,other kids to reach that level)

    Perfection of technique comes with time ,yes,but the instructor,a black Belt lets say,has 3-4 years on the student he is teaching,so if the Black belt continues with his instruction,under his master,he will always be developing and always be 3-4 years ahead of his students.

    This is why the non traditional arts are gaining popularity because people do not want to be professional /eternal students,they want to learn to defend themselves period they do not want little gradings to bring money to instructrors for each piece of tape.

    The arts went from :Being found competent/certified in the basics,to a white and Black Belt, to a 6 belt system, to now a ten or 12 belt system with 2-3 pieces of tape for each rank,why? Does a student need a piece of tape for every technique or form?

    We create more levels,we create more rules and regulations and we think this is the way it should be as we are raising our own pedestal of self greatness.

    The reality is if we sent out Black Belts and allowed them to open their own schools,and remain students of ours,we would be cutting our own throats business wise as the students who open schools would be in the same area as we are and our school ,and they would take from our potential student pool.

    So we set a policy that 3rd degrees can open their own schools because the number of 3rd degrees we produce is alot less than the number of 1st degrees we have,plus we picked up a minimum of 8 years of having that student around.

    Now we send out our 8 year,minimum,student and we make him an instructor under us and we must over ride their teachings,promotions and they must bring stdents to us ,or us to them, for seminars and we get a cut of their money,if not on memberships then on promotions and testing,that we must oversee.

    Yes ,I see the reason for eternal students,lol,the same thing the Korean Masters saw and did when they started and it continues on because we think it is the way it was and must be.
    But is not the way it was.
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Master Rosenberg,
    I think we are saying the same thing with the difference in semantics concerning "assist" and "teaching". I personally see "assitant teaching" as a form of "teaching".... but limited of course by experience, preparedness, etc. The apprentice carpenter is "building" but needs to do so under supervision. Advanced color belts and lower ranked black belts can "teach", but with supervision. And in cases where the supervisor knows they are competatnt, let them do it (like leaving a 1st dan with a clear lesson plan to cover while you are away...)

    Words of Wisdom (that I learned the hard way): No matter how crotchety or candid a person may sound... it still pays off to listen to their experience and insights.
  5. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    1. The original poster asked other students of other systems to chime in as to what their schools require. Last time I checked, you were not a moderator and therefore cannot tell people who should and should not be posting in which forum. As a matter of fact, one of the posts actually suggested that due to the nature of this issue, perhaps it should be moved into general discussion. It's called thread progression, and if you don't like it, call a MOD or join a Hapkido only forum.

    EDIT: Here is the post in question:

    That's from the thread originator, inviting members of other styles to join in this discussion.

    2. You claim you are being civil, and yet you make statements of "If you don't agree with me, then you must be smoking pot". You have been anything but civil top those who have disagreed with you, telling us we don't know what we're doing, yadda, yadda, yadda. Perhaps you should read your own words before claiming others are jumping all over you.

    EDIT: Here is one of the posts in question:

    Hardly inspires me to fall at your feet in utter agreement with everything you say.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005
  6. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    I was never speaking about your case in particular, and your situation is unique no need to be defensive.

    My estimation of a 1st dan is 3-5yrs in HKD expirience.

    There's is no mistake I only have my 5th dan posted on the web site and I am a 6th dan in Sin Moo, Doju Ji promoted me to 6th a year after my 5th.
  7. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    I agree with you in this light. Thanks!

    To everyone concerned

    1. I'm NOT putting down any 1st dans it's a wonderful achievement and a milestone in anyone's life, it was in mine!

    2. For the purposes of teaching a 1st dan is not an Instructor in my book or any Association or governing body I ever belonged to. You guys seems not to like it and that's just to bad that's not how Korean Martial Arts work.

    3. Many of you take offense because I feel a 1st dan only an assistant or apprehentice. Even that is not good enough for you.

    My advice is stop putting the "cart before the horse" or "the tale waging the dog", or whatever.

    I was a 1st dan and a 2nd and a 3rd and a 4th etc. and worked hard long and that's life.

    You may want to start at the TOP but you can't not because I say so but because nature says so.

    There are levels to everything school, college, jobs, and yes even Martial Arts.

    All I can say is deal with it and pay your dues!
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005
  8. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Wow thats intresting. I never knew that :)

    What sort of techniques are these. Are they new kicks, punches, holds etc.
  9. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    It's a little different per school but generally.

    Attacking techs
    joint lock reversals
    short stick traning
    all types of choke defenses
    sit down defenses
    lay down defense

    My teacher taught around 200 for 2nd dan I'm teach little less
  10. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    I see what you're saying and you have many good points.

    I think standards have changed for many good reason like quality control, and some bad like wanting to milk a student for time and money.

    In korea you can get a HKD BB in 1.5-2yrs easy. I have had the privlege of training with many of Korean students 1st dan and such. Most knew the stuff but very superficially and much of it didn't work unpolished.

    But they trained 5-6 days a week 3-4 hrs per day to earn the rank in that time. But they're shallow in thier development in such a short time, but if they train like that for 10-12 years they're awesome and made 3rd, 4th dan.

    IMO time and effort is the most important thing in HKD. In Korea a BBs are a dime a dozen nothing special at all. Most Association know this and limit who can open a school authorized by an good Association like the KHF.

    To westerners a BB is often though of as an "Expert" mainly out of pure ignorance. In korea no 1st or 2nd dan can open a legit school no one will authorize it so thier Instrustors tend to be better more knowledgable. They paid thier dues and learned the whole system the right way.

    Here in the US anyone can do anything "McDojangs", 1st dans with schools, etc., you hear it on this forum all the time. If a 1st dan trains for 10 years he's as good as a 5th dan. Most of this is all justifcations for not training with a master for 10 years and paying your dues.

    I know a karate guy who's a 1st dan for 15plus years he's now trying to test for 5th per his old teacher. What a joke I see him trying to cram 10 years of training into a few months time. It can't be done? His 1st dan skills are fine but his 2,3,4,5 all suck cause he did'nt spend the time on those techniques.

    However you want to slice it, it takes TIME to become a good MA there are no short cuts it's just nature.
  11. Bob1770

    Bob1770 Valued Member

    Wow, this post says mountains about you, both as an instructor and as a person. I would certainly steer clear of your school and instruction after reading through this thread. You make it perfectly clear that your opinion (and it's just that) is the only one that matters.
  12. MasterBob

    MasterBob Valued Member

    After much thought, I've decided not to concern myself with American HKD opinions or responses to anthing I might post in the future. I've paid my dues in Hapkido, whether it be Combat Hapkido (which is my passion) or Sin Moo Hapkido (which is why I took up Combat Hapkido) But no matter how you cut it, Hapkido is still Hapkido. It comes down to a matter of interpetation. As long as it works for you, that's all that matters.

    Master Bob Ingersoll
    CA State Director ICHF
  13. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    You like most here are defensive for no reason too my thoughts!

    They're not pointed at anyone in particular but they are conservative.

    I never said you never paid your dues, did I?

    It's clear to me that people want to be considered Intrs. at low ranks, have schools at low ranks, to what want when they want, and G-d forbid someone raises the question of qualifications.

    Political correctness in the MA.
  14. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Sorry I'm not trying to come off as mine is the only right way, but I don't apologize for being conservative in my martial arts views v.s many liberal views posted hear as well.

    You don't see me making any comments that I know what that liberal Instr. all about I wouldn't touch his school with a 10ft pole.

    I can assure you from these posts you really know very little about me, except for preconceived ideas of which most are way off.
  15. Jointlock

    Jointlock Valued Member

    If most people are defensive about what you say, then maybe the problem is not most people. :confused:
  16. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Could be :rolleyes:
  17. funkymonk

    funkymonk Valued Member

    Thomas you are a wise man! :D

    I totally agree with everything your saying.You put what i think into words much better than me.
  18. Topher

    Topher allo!

    So any school with 1st dan instructors is a McDojo? Way to insult MANY people here :rolleyes:

    As was already mentioned, in some styles you can start to teach your own classes from within colour belts - purple belt in BJJ and green sash in Wing Chun (at least our organisation).

    Does anyone know the rank required for a BJJ student to become an instructor with there own school?

    So do you not teach people new techniques untill they are at that level. Say one of your 1st dans said he didn't want to grade anymore, but wanted to continue training, would he never learn anything new? If someone is ready, and good enough to progress, they should... rank should irrelevant.

    With your example, he wouldn't be trying to cram 10 years worth of training into a few months, as he would have been training that 10 years of training for 15 years ;) So if he has been training correctly during thoes 15+ years, he should be at the skill level for the grade he is grading.

    On your final comment, i totally agree, it does take time become good. What does rank have to do with this?
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2005
  19. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Your helping me make my point.

    We all agree it takes time, that's why we have time in grade standards set by Masters who realize what it takes, and associations that limted people with a certain time in grade to qualify as Instrs.

    It makes perfect sense to me but it throws a monkey wrench in many peoples plans who don't like the restrictions and want it now.

    Also from my understanding BJJ has much different standards like 8-10yrs to a BB. A BJJ purple belt may take 5-7 years which is equal to a Korean Arts BB plus another year or two maybe even a 2nd dan.

    You don't see a BJJ white (2-3yrs) or Blue belt (3-5yrs) with teaching credentials do you?

    1. The point is time is the essence to know what your doing, the BJJ camp knows it.

    2. Continued training new material perfect the old until the end of the system in HKD. (you can't learn to 1st dan or so and after 10 years say your a 5th dan it does'nt work like that.)

    3. Lastly I teach the system of HKD from A to Z with me you have to test at each level to learn the next. You can throw away all your belts and certs. I could care less, but you have to go through the program.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2005
  20. MaxG

    MaxG Valued Member

    Wow, nearly 1300 views and 80 replies in less than a week. Is that a record? And the results are nearly even. Looks like we're pretty evenly split here. 54.55% No and 45.45% Yes.

    Too bad you can't add the option of one changing their mind.

    i.e. I voted no but now that I think about it I want to vote yes. Or vice versa. :D
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2005

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