Repercussions of Self Defence

Hi all

In the scenarios it was brought up about the repercussions of us defending ourselves. As martial artists we are heavily exposed to methods that involve maiming and death. In the wrong hands the skills we are taught are lethal.

Has anyone ever experienced a situation when they have defended themselves and experienced problems with the authorities because of your rank and/or experience?

Are there any police officials that are members who could give us their interpretation of what is and isn't allowed?

All views/comments would be appreciated.

 

Melanie:

I was about in a fight with someone who was treating his girl friend really bad. (one of my best friends/my X) I broke betwee them fighting and he and i about got into it when a off duty cop told me that i could be put in jail for asult with a deadly weapon. (due to me being a certified black belt).

Another instance is when i was going to get a job as a bouncer at a bowling alley/ club. i had the job untill a bud of mine who also worked there said to the manager "It will be good to have him here since he is a black belt" the next day he told me that i couldnt get to just due my rank and a possibility of a lawsuit if i get into a fight while working.

-Chazz

 

In Britain Melanie, the law states you are allowed to use minimum force to defend yourself.

This means if someone is being verbally abusive to you, you can't hit them as they have not used physical force against you. If someone slaps you, you can slap them back but that is it. You are allowed to use whatever force is directed at you back at the attacker and no more.

It is a very delicate area.

For some strange reason if you study the arts the courts do not look favourably on you if you defend yourself as you are supposed to be some sort of highly trained killer. Therefore they believe you should be able to disarm and restrain any opponent with the minimum of effort (I think they have watched to many movies and started to believe the hype). Now if you have ever had to restrain anyone you will know had hard that is.

In my view if someone comes at you with a knife there is no such thing as minimum force, that person is out to do you serious harm maybe even kill you, so you take them down anyway you can and make sure they stay down.

Probable outcome you go to court and get sued for hurting the poor knife wielding thug and he gets a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

Cooler.

 

Thanks fellas

Any more input from anyone else - please put down your comments...

I would like this article to be as thorough as possible.

Thanks.

Melanie

 

Yup all of the above...

Not having gotten my black belt (women, smoking and alcohol to blame) I never encountered the legal problems normally associated with it, but I used to work with a guy now and then that was a black belt and he was always in and out of court defending his actions against people we "helped to leave" pubs and/or clubs.

Some people would go out of their way to get into fights with him and then run crying to the police when they came off worst and barred from whatever establishment he was working for at the time.

It's a sad state of affairs that your hobby/sport/general pastime can actually cause you so much trouble because of ignorant thugs. And one of the reasons that I will never work in that industry again... too many "hard men" wanting to prove themselves.


Cuddles

 

Well known British freestyler stopped his car at a red light. A couple of yobbos croosing over the road thought it would be funny to kick the car and walk on.

He got out the car and challenged them. They thought.two against one ....what a mug, and went for him. He kicked one in the head and killed him.

Went to court charged with murder

Got that reduced to manslaughter

Got away with Self Defence.

How could he anticipate events turning out that way?

Should he have stayed in the car?

 

hmmmmmmm My post here must have been eaten also lol.

In the US, most states seem to frown on anyone defending themselves. In one state I lived in the minimum fine for being involved in a fight, doesn't matter if the other person attacked you, is $350. If you are involved in martial arts training it only gets worse. I have been to court several times now for "excessive force" but only one time did it actually stick, although even then it in my opinion and that of the people who witnessed it wasn't excessive force as I had been cut twice on my left cheek when the individual pulled a knife. But the judge and attorney thought that because I have a black belt I should have been able to completely avoid the knife and passively subdue him without causing any injury. (unrealistic expectations from people who have never been faced with that type of situation).

Rob

 

There once was this Martial Artist. She was walking down the street one day and was attacked by a criminal with a knife. She immediately took action and in the process, killed him.

When she was in court, the DA asked her if she was a Martial Arts Master, to which she replied,"Yes."

The DA then told her that her hands were as deadly as a knife and she could have stopped him without killing him.

She was convicted.

On the other hand the DA got her on the stand and asked her, " Are you a Master of the Martial Arts?" She replied,"No."

He asked her,"But you are a 10th Dan (10th Degree Blackbelt). That means you are a Master!

She replied, "I am always learning. I will always learn more, if I can."

The DA lost his edge and looked for another avenue.

She was released.

Moral of the story: Always be a student. Ego can get you in more trouble than you can believe. Never, ever claim to be a Master. It can mean your doom.

Country Ninja,
Tracy Crocker

 

Thanks Ninjabumon/Tracy,

Welcome to the forum. Glad Rob asked you to join us and please keep up this level of posting!

I look forward to seeing more

Melanie

 

Interesting Discussion. Personally, I do not believe that there is a 'minimum force' which can be used to disarm or disable an opponent.

I think that if you really have to fight, then you have to use all means at your disposal. You cannot rely on the person you are fighting not having a knife, even if you cannot see it. Much better is to avoid the conflict in the first place if this is possible.

I would generally avoid kicking an opponent in the head - this is due to the fact that I am as supple as a block of cement. Much better to take out his leg so he cannot run after you!

 

I have just noticed a Police officer has joined the forum - Andre Lincoln. May we please have your input - from the otherside as it would be....

Melanie

 

Melanie wrote:
"A police officer has joined us...from the other side..."

Other side of what?

Police may not always the best at deciding who is right or who is wrong. If someone defends themselves against an attacker, and that attacker takes advantage of the laws as written to accuse their intended victim of wrongdoing, the police should not dictate who prevails in court. Their role is better seen as a neutral reporting agency to the courts.

I would respectfully submit that the repercussions of true self defense (as opposed to just winning a street fight) have very little to do with the police. The days when an officer could come along at the tail end of a fight and tell who was the good guy (or gal) are part of the romantic past. Nowadays, the expensively clothed middle aged woman can be the drugged up aggressor, and the shabby bum can be the innocent victim. That is why some jurisdictions have directed their officers to charge both parties, or in some other way remove themselves from having to decide after the fact who 'started it'.

On the original topic, there are a couple of self defense writers out there who recommend doing everything in one's power to avoid having a self defense situation turn into a courtroom loss.
Their suggestions include using a fake name while training so that no one can bring your training up in any court proceeding, running away as fast as possible after thoroughly blitzing your attacker, or yelling "Help, Please stop hurting me!!" while blitzing your attacker, and then claiming that your response was the result of panicked flailing, not training, and so on. I don't put these forth as anything other than food for thought.

paul/pablo

 

Having been involved in an incident (prior to studying martial arts) where I was attacked by four people I was on the stand as a witness and the defending soliciters were trying to make me out to be a drunken rugby yob who attacked four people. When they questioned me on the fact that I had headbutted one of my attackers I told them (as instructed by a police officer to do so) that "I felt in fear for my safety". The defending solicitor visibly winced as I said this. The reality of the courts is that the people who know the system best win, regardless of right or wrong.

When I achieve my dan grade I will not bring it up, should I end up in court again, unless specifically asked. The fact of the matter is that you WILL do what is necessary to survive if attacked. I obviously wouldn't stamp on somebody's head when I have already put them out of action but my view is that if somebody is going to attack me then I will persuade them not to do it again. If this involves breaking a bone or destroying knee ligaments and cartilage - they should have remembered their Newton (I think), for every action their is an equal and opposite reaction!

 

I have to agree. While it may not be morally correct, volunteering information about any training you have is virtual case suicide in court. No matter what the case really may be, the public (and more importantly, the judge) will look for those fabled superhuman abilities of the black belt and swear you could have avoided injuring the other person entirely.

 

I have to agree with Silver. Once in a while we should be able to dispense the punishment that the judicial system, would like, but is restrained from providing. Purely in the interests of society as a whole you understand.

 

'Well, you don't let the f****r get back up do you?'

Well you don't, do you? Its a sad state of affairs when you not only have to defend yourself physically but against the very system thats supposed to help you.

 

I was once told by a solicitor friend of mine that most of the people who are arrested are charged (and sometimes convicted) because of what they say at the time of arrest/questioning. Once again I would like to point out the usefulness of the phrase, "I felt in fear for my safety". Obviously this does not give anyone licence to go around beating the hell out of people for the fun of it (something that I have known several MA people to do - arseh*les one and all!) but is handy when it comes to having hurt someone while defending yourself.

Having talked to a few police people I have been told that one of the advantages of aikido is that it does not "look" like you are hurting someone, even when you are. Half the time the courts are more interested in how things look than how they actually are! Damn our justice system!!!! Let's have anarchy instead!! (LOL)

 

I've trained with some policemen before and I've been told that when you're arrested you don't have to say anything, not even acknowledge your rights. If you don't say anything when yuor arrested then nothing can be used against you. Just get to the station and the only thing you should say is 'Can I get my phone call, please'.

 

True, but what do you do when asked in court whether or not you have any real knowledge of fighting, and if you train in anything? I guess plead the 5th but that makes you just as guilty really lol.