Renzo mugging........

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Dead_pool, Sep 7, 2012.

  1. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    my two cents.

    according to the law he broke into the realm of vigilanti justice and not self defense for the second man that he gave raccoon eyes too. not really the first, but I haven't heard all of the interview.

    However, I think what alot of people are getting at is, he may have crossed the line, but its really hard to care when he just potentially took out two people who would more then likely kept doing this anyway had they had been successful. It just not in me to feel compassion towards those who play on the weak.:dunno:

    I think people are blowing renzo doing evil actions out of proportion. The most he really did was embarrass two criminal individuals and defend himself. Thats it.

    there is a judge here in ohio who became notorious for delivering creative and embarrassing punishments to those who did crimes that offended or greatly hurt many. thats all renzo really did. now i understand that one is a rep of the law chosen by the people, but since the judge's decisions are based on what he personally deems appropriate in those circumstances is renzo all that different simply due to a title?

    some of you are acting like renzo gassed them and then took them to the his version of "the gracie SAW 2 house" as punishment. he gave the equivalent of an eye socket indian burn to one, and simply controlled the other. the most he deserves is a small fee.

    had he chose to do more then that and critically injure them he'd be as bad as he is being played out to be in my eyes.. I think one of the biggest problems in our society is people throwing the word "Evil" around too much.

    Evil : "Profoundly or greatly immoral. 2' lacking no positive or good intentions."

    renzo was not evil. slightly sadistic but not evil.

    p.s. this may be my youth showing but I've never minded vigilante justice when i thought the actions were reasonable.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  2. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I think you might have missed the point slightly here - the cruz of the argument isn't whether or not Renzo's actions were good/evil (right/wrong is a matter of perspective, of course). Ultimately, the question must be asked whether or not his actions were lawful and reasonable, and what kind of an example this sets for others. If a man hunted you down, jumped you from behind, choked you out, punched you in the face twice, choked you out again, and punched you in the face some more, i think you'd agree this was more than mere "embarrassment." Equally, i think if you saw a man walk over to an unconscious person lying on the deck and start laying into him, you'd find it more than a little unpleasant.

    And although you might not describe sadism as "evil," i'm pretty sure that torturing, humiliating, and harming another human being for your own gratification is not savoury behaviour. Additionally, the arrogance of broadcasting it to the rest of the world without fear of reprisals shows a total lack of respect for the law. If New York and the rest of the world believe this to be acceptable though, then so be it.

    And as for "vigilante justice" - there is no justice in vigilanteism (which has historically been often poorly targeted or abused). First of all, apart from the person committing the assault, we have no evidence to prove which bits of his statements are true. He has certainly confessed to excessive force and premeditated assault. But how do we know that the people he targeted actually "deserved" what was coming to them? Because he says so? Oh ok then. So i suppose the next time our favourite martial arts celebrity breaks the law and tells us his victims had it coming, we should instantly rally to his side? Please.

    It appears to me that although there are some people on this forum who are very savvy in both streetwise and knowledge of law and legislation, there are also people on this forum who display a startling inability to analyse a scenario objectively. If a man has, through his own testimony, proven his actions to be excessive, sadistic, and unlawful, and has even had the gall to broadcast it to the whole world, he must be seen for the idiot he is.

    I wonder if some of the posters here are are simply turned on by the prospect of martial artists becoming untouchable vigilante avatars of rough justice. If that's the case, then a lot of coffee is needed...
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Renzo acted like an irresponsible dick. I don't particularly care that he beat up a couple of guys - the police will either deal with that or they wont. What bothers me is that he has gone out and given the message that the appropriate way to deal with that situation is to seek out a violent confrontation. Like him or not, he's a role model, and his actions will influence the actions of morons who might end up getting themselves hurt or killed.

    Doing it was ill-advised, but bragging about it was stupid and irresponsible.
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Part of me thinks this is a little piece of Brazil coming to America.
    Peeps down there come from a different culture and act accordingly.
    I've seen another Gracie (Reylson I think) describe dragging an opponent's face across tarmac while he had him in an RNC to mark him up a bit (and they were arguing over a woman rather than a mugging attempt). Pure retribution as the guy was already out.
    These aren't people like you or I. They see the world differently.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Ive heard similar stories about when a certain BJJ champion moved over to the uk, and when another uk based instructor came back to find his house being robbed.
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Quick question, how long have you been in the police/ legal service, and do you always disagree with people who uphold justice themselves , for example
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

  8. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    That's a fair enough question - i'm happy to answer:-

    I currently work as a Security Advisor, having spent a number of years working as a Close Protection Officer (3) and Training Instructor (5) to a number of individuals and firms (usually covering specialised areas, rather than the standard BTEC courses). Over the past 8 years, I have privately funded my own training in a wide range of specialised areas under senior law enforcement and military instructors. Both my work and my training has taken place here in the UK, as well as North America (including New York, where the incident took place), Europe, and Asia. Next year i will hopefully be adding South America to that list. I have also been brought in as a consultant with firms to troubleshoot and develop their security teams - in particular the areas of unit tactics, verbal and physical skills, and lawful conduct (which includes the correct use of force). I have also assembled a team of specialists over the years who are more than qualified to advise me and my clients, and are often contracted to do so.

    Forgive my secrecy, but it'd be bad drills to start dropping names, client specifics, etc... so i'm afraid you'll just have to take me at my word (not a particularly easy thing to do on a forum populated by pseudonyms!). Needless to say, i'm not the top authority on the above, but i certainly believe that my experience, knowledge and method puts me in a strong position to provide an educated input.

    As for the wider topic of vigilanteism as a whole - the example that you have provided is a very different context, with very different players, in a very different part of the world. As you can tell, the point i am trying to make is that it is a very different example, and therefore it is impossible to apply a blanket opinion relevant to both situations and any other situations that are suggested. Also, there is no evidence in that article to support the fact that the woman's actions were justified. There are no witness testimonies, there is no forensic or physical evidence, and there is no counter-statement from the alleged rapist (since his head is no longer attached to his body). Until a case is examined properly, and all the evidence taken into account, one is in no position to deliver a judgement on it.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  9. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    well seeing as the audio for the first one makes it pretty darn clear that at least one of them was attempting to mug him, and other was the accomplice. I don't get the "we don't know he was going to mug him statement." he was in the process of it. from what he described would anybody else honestly think that some innocent bystander was just asking for a smoke in that situation.

    and i find it very hard to believe that a MMA and Jiujitsu star like Renzo decided to beat up two strangers for some publicity.

    I wonder had he given them an indian burn after he was unconscious would it still have been considered torture?

    either way -assuming they were mugging him, and having been choked unconscious before, and knowing its a much more humane way of taking someone out then a baseball bat or repetitive KO's 0 cares to give about the robbers. :dunno:
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thanks for the nuanced reply, ill reply further when I get to a desktop, Surfice to say I agree with you, but If I were in the same position, Id feel much more empathy with someone defending there own property and neighbourhood, then I would with petty criminals getting two black eyes.

  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Not always, but they are related. Justice for her was the end of the blackmail.
  12. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    All this incident proves is that Renzo is just as susceptible to ego and adrenaline as anyone else and no amount of training will eradicate that.

    Ignoring semantics, lets say the two guys were legitimately trying to mug him. He punches one dude out while the other runs. Done. Game over. I'm with him at this point. The second he says he got in his car, chased down the other guy and then savagely beat him, he lost.

    I think the fact that he used his training to eliminate the threat right off the bat was enough of a message that his training is effective. The fact that he then chases the guy down shows that he's an egotistical idiot who cares more about his image in the eyes of a random criminal than of the law or his own safety. Going on twitter to brag about it is such a high school maneuver. Legendary BJJ black belt and MMA fighter thwarts unarmed and fleeing muggers! Are we supposed to be impressed?
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Now if he had used his BJJ on broken glass and lava THAT would have been impressive
  14. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    The "we don't know he was going to mug him" statement was made based only on the Twitter evidence, not the audio interview.

    The publicity argument is supported by his enthusiasm in broadcasting the incident to the rest of the world. What other reason did he have to broadcast the information, other than to bring it to public attention?

    And assuming that they were mugging him, regardless - a revenge attack is still a revenge attack. He suffered no physical damage (apart from the damage to his knuckles from the punches he delivered), no financial loss, and no sexual abuse. Therefore his delivery of significant physical punishment and humiliation is not in direct proportion to what he has suffered. Yes, it could have been worse - he could've used a bat, a chainsaw, a firearm, or a whole load of other far more destructive objects. But just because it could have been worse, does not excuse his behaviour, and does not excuse his attempts to publicly glorify his actions.

    And finally, as for giving a damn about robbers (in this case, alleged attempted robbers), they are still people - albeit misguided people - and have human rights the same as you or me. If you would rather live in a society governed by the rule of force than the rule of law, there are plenty of places in the world you can go. However, New York has opted for the latter, and so it should continue to maintain that decision impartially. The key to establishing and maintaining a just and fair legal system is to first understand that no-one - irrespective of who they are or what they have done - is above the law.

    I do not believe that Renzo Gracie should have special privileges over any other citizen. Do you believe the contrary? Please be aware that this is a yes or no question.
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    To put it another way:

    Do I think what he did was legally OK? No
    Do I think what he did was ok? Yes
    Do I think the law is correct? From above clearly I do not.
    Do I want the law to be enforced? No

    I'm fine with vigilante justice, it has no place in centralized utopian governed society, but that ideal is not something I have faith in.
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Please, reiterate that post when some random stranger runs you down in a car because you look like the guy who touched up his daughter, because that's the reality of vigilante justice.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I Agree, mattt does look just like him!
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Anyone that thinks vigilante justice is the way to go just needs to remember the time a paediatrician was attacked because "the mob" didn't/don't know a paediatrician is different to a paedophile.
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I dont think its even close to being the ideal, but it does exist and isnt always a bad thing.
    With Renzo the first man was self selected, the second guy I have more of a problem with, But in the scheme of things people really should remember that shades of grey means more then just poor literatureporn for 'ladies'

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