Reminds me of a dvd I once saw

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by fatb0y, Sep 24, 2006.

  1. fatb0y

    fatb0y Valued Member

  2. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Fascinating.
    Would you care to expand on that, or just leave it hanging... :rolleyes:
     
  3. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    I really like Yang Jwing-mings qinna. I don't think it has much to do with Taijiquan, but I like it none the less.
     
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Not much use for dealing with fighters who use a closed fist. I know it's a demonstration of principles but the instructor left himself constantly open to counters.

    The Bear.
     
  5. Kaitain

    Kaitain Valued Member

    He's training specific technique in a sterile environment - teaching. The whole point of chin na is that you take what's there, rather than chasing it. If it's a closed fist then there are different things to do - once you've adhered, you just let the principles come through according to what is offered. In honesty, how much stuff is there that _isn't_ open to counters?

    As for the "not taiji" argument, if it works and he is applying his taiji to it, what's the problem? I kept my round kick from my MT days, and just tweaked the mechanics so that it fit my taijiquan better. Therefore it's 'my' taiji.
     
  6. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    I like the idea of Chin na as a learning tool. Which is what he is doing he is teaching an idea to get that across properly its easier to do so in a basic manner. Once the idea is learnt then one can find out how it might work in a realistic situation. As has been said Tai chi is about principles not techniques as long as the principles are correct Im happy to use anything if it works.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2006
  7. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    I wonder what would distinguish his taiji qinna from his white crane qinna. It might be an interesting point to explore; if the mechanics in the taiji qinna are the same as in the white crane qinna, can he say that qinna he learned in white crane is taiji qinna?

    Note: I don't have anything against Dr. Yang, and I like several of his books. I don't intend to come off critically, and apologize if that's the case.
     
  8. Kaitain

    Kaitain Valued Member

    I think the key is more in how you take the opportunity than the particular execution - adhere, connect, stick and follow lead to a different method. As far as I'm concerned - chin na is chin na. It is not style specific. Distinction comes more in how and when you apply it.
     
  9. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Woah woah woah...where did you come from? Bit too much common sense for about these parts mate, you best keep going through to the next town partner.
     
  10. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

  11. Kaitain

    Kaitain Valued Member

    It's ok - it'll all go wrong once I start talking about chi :)
     
  12. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    Hah.

    I agree with the assessment that qinna isn't necessarily style specific. I just find it interesting looking at the way a taiji player would apply the techniques as opposed to a shaolin player, for example.

    Edit: Although, the difference would be less in the techinque itself than in how you arrive at that technique, I think. Which means that in a static environment like this video, you probably can't see the difference.
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    A dangerous way to train. Sincerity should be the core of all training. Train like it will be done in the field except maybe a little slower for safety and working on finesse.

    The Bear.
     
  14. Kaitain

    Kaitain Valued Member

    How is it insincere to remove all extraneous elements until the technique can be done properly? Once someone can perform the technique, then look to reintroduce those elements.

    When I was training BJJ we didn't learn to armbar someone by rolling freely, to start with you just drill the technique against a compliant partner. Then you learn a couple of other submissions from mount, then you learn the escapes, then you play around with attacker/defender scenarios, then you roll at the end to see how it works (badly usually :))

    I've trained for 20 years in a bunch of styles and I can't think of one that didn't work in this progressive manner. If you've bought a DVD to learn how to lock someone up, then surely you'd want the most crisp and clean implementation on show in order for you to learn how to do it?

    Now - if you're merely saying that if all YJM trains is this method, then I agree that is folly. There has to be a pressured testing ground for all these things. I hope you'd agree that you can't assume anything from a clip of a teaching DVD, other than to comment on the skill shown in the clip.
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Interesting comment as usual Bear..

    You can't always teach or learn things like qinna techniques the way you would train them for use (in the field as you say). This is to me a teaching video - without question! so i think we can forgive him.. I think Kaitain made mention of the 'sterile environment - teaching'.

    Teaching and learning can certainly be spoken of it in terms of training and vica verca - training to teach/learn. But I think we can safely say they are not quite the same animal. Now i can learn something then really go train it. Or i can go train something to really learn it /improve at it.

    You are referring to the second wheras Kaitain was referring to the first. Both valid and necessary in relation to MA.

    Once again you take the low road to have a pop at anything tcc.. :D

    Regardless I wholeheartily agree with your sentiments as to training for use. Dr. Yang has a pretty good rep in the US for some of his students competing in san shou (going by what I've read on the KF forum here about san shou in US). So I very much doubt that the training in his organisation is all so much of the 'dangerous way' you point out. They also do weapon sparring if I recall correctly.

    Having been reading a book of his recently I'd firmly say he's still very much a hippie (with short hair) - if that makes you feel better :)

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2006
  16. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Harsh Zen though perhaps not completely unwarranted. My goal is to show the flaws in some tcc training to (hopefully) get people to start thinking again instead of accepting their sifu's view.

    I think the video highlights, more than anything, the problem of martial art videos in general. Most of them end up making, what is shown in them, look awful because the demonstrators try to dumb down for the camera when they should do it properly and have it filmed from multiple angles.
    The one TCC video I praised showed slowed down technique and full speed application. The slowed down versions did not have "extraneous" elements removed because there should not be any "extraneous" elements in a technique. A technique should include the entering, aligning and application/redirection of force also a disengagement or immobilisation. If you miss any of these elements out the technique will be degraded.

    The Bear.
     
  17. Kaitain

    Kaitain Valued Member

    Interesting, if misguided.

    Raw technique should be independent of tactical method when you are learning it. See the BJJ description I gave - that is a standard progression for technique based learning.

    I'll define what I mean by 'extraneous' for you - the opponent not fighting back, not having an adrenaline surge, not having to adjust footwork, not having to wait for the opportunity to take the limb. Learning without having to worry about anything except the specific technique.

    If you are learning a principle based system like TCC, then "the entering, aligning and application/redirection of force also a disengagement or immobilisation" are part of the principles, not part of any specific technique. Stick, adhere, connect and follow pretty much cover it.
     
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    bah, don't take my gently intended ribbing harshly mate, you're a big bear you can handle it. :)

    'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' - the fortune cookie is your friend.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2006
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Surely not, The technique is nothing without the principles. It is the principles of TCC that make it effective not the techniques. Follow the principles and your techniques will always work, train technique only and your at the whim of circumstance.

    The Bear.
     
  20. Kaitain

    Kaitain Valued Member

    isn't that what I said? We appear to be on the same page...

    All Im saying is that it is useful to strip everything bar the basic technique out, in order to learn it. Once learned, then you put it into context again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2006

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