Reminder: Things to think about before posting claims and/or videos

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Matt_Bernius, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Let me set the stage for what follows with a beloved quote:
    Recently, we’ve had a spate of cases where people have decided to post either:

    a. big claims about themselves or their schools,
    b. or videos/photos of themselves or their instructors in action.

    In most cases these folks became agitated when they discover that members of the community questioned their claims and critiqued their footage. Before anyone else goes down this path blindly and another war erupts, let me spell a few things out:

    While we are all involved in the martial arts in some capacity or another, Martial Arts Planet (MAP) is an internet forum with members spread out across the globe. Most of us will never meet outside of this virtual space. That means that our interactions typically take place though text. For all intents and purposes, you write yourself into existence here. Therefore, the MAP community expects that the “you” on MAP more or less matches the “you” off MAP. The only way a forum like this works is if we are all honest about who we are and what we can do.

    Posting Claims
    Ok, so say you’re feeling your oats and decide to let us all know about what a bad mofo you are. Posting a claim, while pretty pretentious, is within the MAP Terms of Service (TOS). BUT, if you make claims IT IS UP TO YOU TO BACK THEM UP. “WHAT???!!!!” you say, “Why can’t my claims be taken at face value?” Well, text is cheap and easy. Posting that you can perform 70 sidekicks in less than a minute doesn’t make it anymore true than my posting that I’m a small furry marsupial makes me a possum.

    In western cultures there is a well established notion of the burden of proof:
    What that means is that if you write it, you better be prepared to back it up with proof. And that proof will be judged by the MAP community because this community is founded on being able to trust what every member posts. The Burden of Proof places all responsibility on the person who makes the claims. So, in response to someone questioning the kick claim, I shouldn’t respond “Prove I can’t!” It is my responsibility to prove it. Further, we have numerous members who are masters in the modern art of Google-do and are more than happy to look up current work records. The best way to make yourself look like a jackass is to have someone post proof that your claims are "inflated."

    Simply put: If you don’t want to stand up to community scrutiny and play by the rules, then please don’t click the temping blue New Thread button. Sit on your mouse hand. Trust me, it’s better that way.

    We all love watching videos. There is an entire sub-forum dedicated to Movies. And we always dig people sharing videos of themselves in training and competing. But please understand that if you post a video, it will undoubtedly be critiqued, whether you ask for the feedback or not.

    Why? This is an internet forum, and at the end of the day all internet forums are about discussion. MAP members have critiqued videos of Bruce Lee, why should you be any different? We all are here because on some level we all feel we have something to share. Many of us are teachers. And we really enjoy helping each other out. So when we can provide constructive criticism we typically do. You need to be prepared for this!

    Responding to criticism with “let’s see you do better” doesn’t cut it. This falls back to the general idea of the burden of proof. You made the choice to post the video, and you need to live with the consequences. Plus, you’ll find that most responses will provide ideas about how to do it better.

    Again: If you don’t want the community scrutiny, please don’t click the New Thread button.

    And please, please, please understand this: Combining claims and videos is the quickest and most efficient path to pain. Big pain. Big, big, pain. The community has a special place for this and you need to have a thick, thick skin for the volume of responses that you will get. So please: if you don’t want the community scrutiny, please don’t click the New Thread button.

    Calling people and critiquing videos
    (This section is for the rest of the community.) Please don’t take the above as a free pass to bash away. Questioning the claim or constructively critiquing the video is ok. Attacking the character of the person, making outright fun of them, their teacher, their relatives, their dog, etc. is bad… as in unacceptable… as in an Ad Hominem attack… as in against TOS… as in you will be sin-binned or banned so fast your family will be dizzy for generations.

    So for all of you, follow your mother’s advice: If you don’t have anything good to say, please don’t click the temping blue Post Reply button.

    In all cases, remember that we mods are watching. We dig good conversation and dialog, but will not tolerate violations of the TOS. Plus we’re a lot more friendly and helpful when we don’t have to act as referees.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2005
  2. reikislapper

    reikislapper see you on the flypaper

    I'm so tempted to be naughty here but I don't think I would get away with it lol.

    Do you mean ALL claims no matter what they are :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .

    You know I love the mods in here, your a bunch of sweeties lol

    lisa xx
  3. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    nice. By the way, I can do 70 sidekicks in less than a minute.

  4. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Excellent points made, Matt.

    May you achieve
  5. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Only 70? Wuss!

    :D :D
  6. Lithanwif

    Lithanwif Human Punchbag

    Some nights I can do less than a sidekick in 70 minutes!!!

    I'd post a video, but who has the bandwidth?
  7. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Can we have some examples of good post/bad post, then? Since I'm one of the icky offenders ( :D ) I'd like to know a bit better what is and isn't acceptable, and if it may be better to just stay away from the things altogether :)

    BTW, did you watch Mulan recently? Love the line about making your descendants dizzy :p
  8. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Is this payback for my asking for all the free legal advice? :)

    Seriously folks, if a claims posted you can question the claim but not attack the person. Overall everyone's pretty good at doing that here. Typically things get dodgy when someone start to get up in arms about being challenged. And as I've suggested, the mods will "gently" nudge you all when needed!

    The key thing here, never attack the person. Ie. "There's no way you could do 70 side kicks because you're skinny as a toothpick, bowlegged and quite simple suck Matt. Now STFU and STFD jerk" <- this is the type of stuff that will never fly here. Now I have to go sin-bin myself for that personal attack.

    No, actually never saw Mulan... I was initially stoked about it in the early trailers and then got turned off when I saw the dragon. Anyway, that style of joke has been around for quite a while.

    - Matt
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2005
  9. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Check. Just wanna make sure that other people read this and stop getting their panties in a bunch every time we happen to say there's something about a video we don't like.

    See you when you get back from the sin bin!
  10. Another Muay Thai Guy

    Another Muay Thai Guy Valued member

    That film ROCKS!
    "But they popped outta the DAISIES!". Has me laughing every time. :D
    I really should invest in the DVD version.

    Anyways, back on topic, great post Matt. :D
  11. Origami Itto

    Origami Itto Walking Paths

    I think that there always be a case where someone wants to share an genuine experience or achievement with the community, only to be faced with people trying to prove him/her a fraud (because they genuinly believe that he is lying).

    What happens then?

    This is more of a rhetorical question really. I don't think that there is a good way to tell a genuine claim from a fraudelent one before arguements and hypotheses start flying around, and sometimes people just want to tell a story, they can't be bothered to publish an article in a well-respected peer-reviewed journal to back their claims. I guess this is the cold hard world of internet forums...
  12. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    There may always be people who won't believe, but if you look at the history of MAP, we've had many, many people posting personal accounts that just about everyone agrees with. The MAP community, as a whole, has a good understanding of what is accepted and what isnt (even if no single member can completely articulate it). Much like Justice Potter Stewart and pornography, as a community we can't necessarily define a tall tale, but we know it when we see it. This is what separates the claims of a MMM vs let's say Pat O'Malley.

    Is there a chance that we might not believe a true story or accept a false one? Yes. That's always a possibility. But I'm willing to bet that the community is far, far more right than it's wrong. And I'm willing to support those odds.

    That's fine. And we're not looking for peer review (unless someone's going into a academic area like, let's say history). The simple message here is: if you post claims be prepared for push back. And if you're upset by pushback that's given correctly, its your problem not the problem of the respondents.

    - Matt
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2005
  13. Origami Itto

    Origami Itto Walking Paths

    In the end it all comes down to the community... and a nice team of mods :).
  14. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Exactly, that's all of our commitment and agreement here. Everyone's here for a reason and MAP is a great community.

    - Matt
  15. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Just one question

    Can we make this a sticky?

  16. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    whilst twirling my ninja sword and eating sardines. I'd post video, but you'd prolly have something smart to say about it.


  17. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Well said , Matt!!!!!
    This would make a delightful sticky...
  18. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    Sticky!!! sticky!!! sticky!!! sticky!!! sticky!!! ;)

    No but seriously, this would be a good post to read for all WOULD-BE MMM's...
  19. basatum

    basatum New Member

    A. Common sense should tell us that if we make a claim that is unusual people are going to question it. People who don't understand this are at the mercy of their own immaturity.

    B. Isn't it a matter of perspective? If you make video of yourself public then it's probably because you think it's "cool" or whatever. I'm sure there is going to be someone out there who sees it and thinks it's dumb. It's just the risk you take by showing yourself or whomever.
  20. Vanir

    Vanir lost my sidhe

    Even scientists with years spent experimenting in labs and nutting out complex math are expected to subject their falsifiable hypothesis to peer review before being accepted into the halls of scientific theorum.

    After all that you'd expect a personality to be a little downhearted about being immediately treated with utter skepticism. But its how things like neo-Eugenics (ie. Nazism), don't get pushed in scientific journals, because they don't stand up to empirical evidence.

    For something as easy as an off hand claim about one's martial capabilities, I should think it's no thing at all to back it up with an establishment of the facts.
    No need to get into the company of a whole world of MA'ists, make claims and then ignore everything they've got to say.

Share This Page