Remembrance day

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Mangosteen, Nov 11, 2015.

  1. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I'm I the only person who sits through the 2 minutes of silence on Rememberance Day and is angry the entire time?

    Angry that military folks come home, are hailed as heroes for a short minute but aren't given appropriate help reintegrating into civilian society?

    Angry that we haven't changed our military to that of a defence force?

    I'm by far not a pacifist but on every level recent (post WW2) british military involvements (mau mau rebellion, chagos, iraq) seems to be ordinary people routinely doing extra-ordinary things for what seems like little real purpose (maybe minor political gain for a select few) and little reward for their efforts.

    It feels like all those poppies are people pretending to care once a year and that all the bloodshed, the reasons for that bloodshed, is totally ignored.
     
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    There's actually quite a lot of help available nowadays. 15 years ago, maybe not, but Afghanistan and Iraq have forced the armed forces to take that component very seriously
    And in so doing prevent us from helping our allies, and from tackling evil? What if the UK had a defence force in 1914 and 1939? How different would the world look now if British troops hadn't been on the beaches in Normandy, or the fields in Flanders?
    The Kosovans might disagree with that.

    The British military also do a lot of humanitarian work.
    You think people care once a year? People buy poppies because they are expected to buy poppies. It is as much about remembrance as Christmas is about the birth of a Nazarene Carpenter.
     
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Today I skipped the parade at the cenotaph. Went to the bar where me and three of my mates I enlisted with used to go. I asked the barman for four pints. I drank one and thought about those mates while looking at the other three pints that nobody was going to drink. That's what remembrance is to me.

    Rest easy, lads. See you again one day.
     
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    war is still necessary today but i think we're allowed to be angry it still goes on yet paradoxically we get shot down for criticising military acts because of the tragedy that occurs, thats why i posted here and not on facebook

    I'm angry at the loss of life and the lives they would have lead. the musicians, artists, scientists etc that we lost.
    thats what i think about in those 2 minutes of silence

    Although I'm glad that WW2 allowed the colonies enough sway to seek independence (which was pretty instrumental in bringing down the racial hierarchy and allowing me to go to school with white folks and date freely)

    but I'm still angry that van zandt is one of many sitting in a pub alone or that despite all the help soldiers do have its still super rough

    yes kosovo was necessary (and upcoming maybe syria too) and the defence force thing was in reference to post-ww2 but so many actions have been senseless losses of life for political gain. thats part of why world war 1 and 2 are remembered and the kenyan (1960s) and boer (1890s) concentration camps we set up aren't remembered all too well.

    We could spare so many lives by just winding our neck in just a little and. this move to reserves and peacekeeping thats been going on for a while now seems pretty decent.
    im not dead set against war but we certainly haven't used it as a last resort as much as we should have.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    The personal matters at least as much as the national, but you don't need me to tell you that.

    RIP to your mates VZ.

    Mitch
     
  7. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    There was an interesting thing i heard from an american politician on BBC who served in afghanistan. he had a bunch of medals and an impressive service record but through his entire campaign didn't speak about it once until someone in the media leaked it (he said he didn't want to be labelled a hero for doing what he thought as ordinary)

    he had this theory that memorials and remembrance where more important to people post WW1 and 2 because they could connect to it personally, everyone had lost someone during that time and it truly was a day of national morning but now very few people are connected personally to someone who has died in service and its become a misguided, often feverish, attempt for civilians to connect with the military like their elders did.
     
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Personally I view it in two ways:

    1. In our society whether you're secular we have many opportunities to celebrate life. This is our culture's one ritual acknowledgement, celebration, what have you of death.

    2. In many ways I think myself and others, and even many of the vets I've met, see it as a way to support the soldier without supporting the political causes now often attached to war. That you can support the common man, the soldier, while at the same time decrying the reasons necessitating violence is a powerful and righteous thing.
     
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    thank you ben. you've actually resolved a lot of the issues i was having with that post.

    we get on with our lives and can be angry 364 days of the year but that one day should be a day of mourning even if we wish for peace
     
  10. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Is Remembrance Day for you guys like Memorial Day for the U.S.?

    This day fell on Veteran's day for us, where "you thank those who are alive still and have served." Memorial Day for us is for the people who served and didn't make it.

    Just asking out of curiosity. Not sure if you guys mix what we call Veteran's Day and Memorial Day together on one day?
     
  11. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I don't know about your days, so I can't compare them, but we have two days too.

    Armistice Day is the 11th of November, when we have a minute (nowadays two minutes) silence at 11 o'clock (which is the time when the armistice came into force on the Western Front in 1918.)

    We also have Rememberence Day, which is the nearest Sunday to Armistice Day, and is when you get al the parades and hoopla and the laying of wreaths at the Cenotaph and at war memorials all around the country.

    Personally, I observe the two minutes silence on the 11th and think about my relations who served in WWI. Mostly those who didn't come home, but also those who came home but had to suffer the consequences for the rest of thier lives. I don't pay any attention to Rememberence Day personally. For me it's too much a case of the politicians and the royal family piously wringing their hands over the misery that they inflicted on the rest of us. But that's just my own personal feeling.
     
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i didnt want to crap on the people at the top... but johnno has my thoughts spot on. that doesnt devalue the service folks lives but i strongly dislike the weird national festival rather than personal mourning
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    For me "remembering" is too passive a thing.
    What does it really do? It's symbolic isn't it?
    The dead people don't know or care if I remember what they did. They are dead. Too late for them.
    For me there should be more emphasis on the prevention of violence and needless death rather than "remembering".
    Governments and politicians should be held more accountable for what they ask the armed forces to do and it seems to me no amount of "remembering" over the past decades has brought that about.
    I also detest the witch hunt that goes on when someone of prominence decides not to or forgets to wear a poppy in public.
     
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Couldn't put it better than this. (I might have punctuated and capitalised it better, but I couldn't have expressed the sentiment any better.)
     
  15. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's a good point too. It's like repeating the same lesson over and over again.... and never actually learning a damn thing from it.
     
  16. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    which is why i started this thread!
    its why im angry during those 2 minutes

    its become a ritual with no meaning other than nationalism

    This is the first sentence United nations declaration of human rights in 1948:
    These were men who knew suffering and loss. this is what we should remember - they did not want to war pointlessly.
     
  17. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Wars are never 'pointless'. There is always a justification or an excuse, and someone always benefits from them, or expects to benefit from them. Otherwise, they wouldn't happen.

    But those who benefit are very rarely those doing the actual fighting.
     
  18. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    we can probably count the "justifiable" military interactions since ww2 on one hand
     
  19. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    There are more times we should have intervened and didn't than times we shouldn't and did anyway.
     
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    debatable depending on your views of foreign policy.
     

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