Religion - Warning may offend some veiwers

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Darzeka, Jun 28, 2002.

  1. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    This is going to be a rather large ramble by me about some of my views about religion. It is 3 AM so this may not be too coherent




    ***********************

    WARNING

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    If you are really devout to your religion some of what I may write could offend you - you have been warned.

    I believe nothing I write here. It is merely conjecture - I have yet to decide which I believe.

    I believe that everything is possible (including that something is impossible because anything is possible).








    Let me start by saying that I believe in GOD. Not as anyone else thinks of it but I do believe in GOD (I use the term GOD only for the purposes of this post. In the recesses of my mind it is just it).
    I also believe in gods, aliens, magic, dragons and many other "mythical" things.



    GOD

    The thing I call god is the cosmic force that IS everything.

    Now this force is so far removed from our sphere of comprehension that we cannot begin to uderstand what it is, if it thinks, anything about it (not above or below mind you, only removed). All I know is that it is there. And that it has no awareness of us.

    Just as we are not aware of the microrganisms in the air we breathe - it is not aware of us. More than likely it is not even aware of matter in general. It is not about superior beings only scope and perspective.

    I believe that there could only possibly be one of these things in existance anywhere (I know I said anything is possible but here we start to get confused). The problem with saying that anything is possible is that there has to be at least one thing that is impossible to make it true (see I told you - confusion).
    To explain this I like to think of the overused word unique.
    I am unique.
    but anything is possible right?
    So somewhere in the universe is a planet entirely populated by me - anything is possible.
    And I am truly unique - there is only one thing in existance that is just like e.
    An interesting paradox.
    GOD is there to solve this. It IS everything in existance. There can only be one everything because there is nothing else.

    Orright. We have this thing called GOD that is everything. Why does anything happen? Haven't the foggiest. So why do a group of people claim that this force that doesn't even realise we exist actively affect the course of our lives?

    Do they want someone to take responsibilty for their actions?
    Do they need the incentive of heaven to be good?
    Or is it the fear of hell?
    Shouldn't that be the other way around? (back to this later)

    Do you talk to those organisms in the air? Would they understand? Are they trying to communicate with us? Are we but gods ignoring the plights of mere mortals?

    I think that it is a bit arrogant to think that we can fathom the intentions of this being that we can know what it would want us to do if could comprehend our existance.

    This brings me to the nature of good and evil. (A big leap i know but this has been bugging me lately)
    Why do we think that just because we think it is right to be kind to other things, keep things alive, everything that is "good" that it is infact a "good" act. Think of something that we consider evil. When they commit that act do they think that it is evil? not likely they are just doing what feels natural.
    Compare that to us. We do what feels natural in that we do "good". Could not some higher agent - the gods for ant of a better example yet - actually think of what we are doing as evil when we think it is good?
    Why don't we go around killing people? Becuase we would go to jail. Why would they put us in jail? fear? doing what is right and good?

    Could not the death of the body merely be the release of the energy that constitutes our soul? Could the body not be a cocoon type thing for the mind? Could the mind/soul not have been trapped in the flesh by accident? Anything is possible. If anyof these were true would not killing the body be a good thing? Freedom and growth. Two things that we tend to cherish on this planet. We may be commiting grievous "evils" whilst commiting "good" deeds on the Earth.
    GOOD = EVIL
    EVIL = GOOD
    So then all you are left with is the reason why we don't do things we are told not to by the powers in our lands. You can do whatever you want as long as you are willing to pay the price.


    Heaven and Hell

    What happens when you die (we don't know but everyone seems to think that either we go to heaven, hell, limbo or get reincarnated). lets say you go to heaven. Why are you there? You lived you life according to the religion that is right and didn't break the rules. Why are there rules if it is the right way to live? Shouldn't we just do it naturally? Isn't that the way all other animals do it. And if you make it to heaven do you get to do whatever you want - even though it may break a few rules?

    Or have you been scoring points with the higher ups by following the rules that you feel uncomfortable following only to live for eternity folowing those rules?
    On the other hand you go to hell. In some forms of hell you spend eternity doing that which it was that got you there. Ok lets punish someone who does bad stuff by letting them do it over and over again. Shouldn't this actually be heaven?

    Or you spend eternity being tortured and scarred, etc.
    Which do you choose? a fun life and a painful afterlife or a life where you follow exceedingly strict rules only to continue to follow them idefinatley.

    This sounds to me like blackmail into doing something for someone you don' t want to do.


    Gods, Aliens and The Devil

    I believe that probably any figure that was ever worhipped is a real god. Not GOD just gods. The God figure held up by most religions is a warped version of the GOD. Where they have mixed the personal nature of gods with the onipresent aspect of GOD.

    Now Aliens are beigns not of this region (planet).
    Gods are Alens.
    By definition gods aren't human and they don't come from Earth. So they are aliens.

    This puts new perspective on the gods. They are not that much defferent from other beings only their scope is larger than ours.

    Aliens are to us
    as we are to dogs.

    Now just think of deities as a race (many different races) of college students on a spring break. They decide to mess with the little creatures on that small planet. (Think Stargate here)
    this mainly concerns the western God and the Devil. They are always fighting it seems. I believe that the western God actually had a no interference policy put in place - let them work it out for themselves. Oh and one of the ten commandments kinda gives this credit - thou shalt take no other god before me. So there are other gods? and its okay for us to take one after you?
    So anyway the Devil decides to play with God. His masterpiece - The Bible. Every thing in it is the work of the Devil. Jesus was the son of the Devil.
    Everything that ever came from religion ended in war, bloodshed, mayhem - all goals of the devil.



    Timetravel


    I think it is impossible. If it were possible time would go no where. If one being could timetravel then time would keep rweinding itself until that being was happy with it and then until the next and then back to the first, futile

    What is time? It is the force that keeps everything from happening all at once.

    How do you imagine time? Is it a point? a line? a circle?
    I think it is a point.
    If it were a circle this would mean that everything has happened before and will happen again into infinity. This also means that we have no control over our lives whatsoever and we are just players in a grand play. And it would also mean time travel would be useless. If it has all happened before then the timtravel incident would keep happeneing too, not changing anything.
    If time is a point timetravel would require enough energy to stop then rewind the force of time. I think that this would more than likely cause the universe to end.
    If it were a line then there would need to be a beggining and I don't think there was a beggining (eveything is possible including and exception to every rule) so there goes that one.

    Thats all for now - its 4:20 AM

    I may add more later.

    Anything you wish to say is welcome. If something is not explained well I will try to clear it up for you when I'm awake.


    All but 1
     
  2. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Sheesh! I hate to see your posts when you're awake! I guess I haven't had much to do lately. I will be watching this thread with keen anticipation :D
     
  3. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Interesting fact. There is a part of the brain that is triggered when you pray, who you're praying to doesn't matter. Atheists use this as an argument that god is simply a biological need, Thiests say that the best way for a god to give his people some desire to pray would be to use the simplest mechanism to hand, perhaps by slotting something into their brain.
     
  4. fluffydoc

    fluffydoc Carry On MAPper

    Doesn't addicting us to praying to him make faith irrelevant?
     
  5. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    Yeah but this is part of my theory that God doesn't interfere with us down and that the church was started because someone wanted to control the minds of others, into doing things they think are right (or they never had any dates so made everyone else suffer waiting for marriage).

    They realised that people want something to believe in so they just make it all up and seeing as how the church wrote most of the acient histories, they wrote it how they wanted it to be seen (they were the only literate people who kept libraries and numbered many scholars).

    As you can see I have a dim veiw of churches.

    when I am awake I will generally only write something that has fully formed in my mind so normally when I write I discard many trains of thought that die in the ass. When I'm nearly asleep like I was last night I just keep writing - It's kinda trance like (I also do this in exams and finish exeedingly quickly, leave less than half way through after finishing and generally get good marks.)

    One of the things about religion and religious people is the really silly things that they believe.
    You must be married to have sex??
    Existance as a whole was made purely for us?
    My religion is the only set of beliefs that is valid and true?
    The church are here to help us?
    Heaven will be fun??
    Jesus died for my sins?
    The bible is filled with actual events and people not metaphors?
    Rock is the work of the Devil?
    Marilyn Manson is evil?
    Everyone needs to be brought to Christ? (aren't we meant to come via our own volition?)

    I really don't mind that people want to believe in these things (without beleif in something then we are generally sick people) I just don't like when they try to force these things on me and others who don't to hear it. Beleif should be a private thing that is different in each person.

    And how do you define prayer? Asking a higher power for help, guidance or comfort? Wanting something really badly that you would pray for it to happen (someone survive a horrific accident for example) but don't but still want it (subconcious praying?)?

    and besides addiction implies that we like the reaction and want more or that the body comes to expect it and need it to function normally.
    *chuckles* has any died from not praying? Only because they had prayed many times a day for the majority of their life, suffered some great injustice then refused to pray anymore. The body is "addicted" to prayer and when the brain reaction stops the body rebels and in the "rehabilitation" sustains so much damage that the person dies.
    Death from not praying. A little bit of fear of the consequenses always has a good effect on following the rules.


    Does this brain activity actually do anything? cause a chemical reaction? secrete a druglike substance (the new designer drug - God)? anyone know? Or is it just an antenna like thing that we activate for telepathy becuase we picture God as being so far away and we project our thoughts to it? (another tangential thread about telepathy here I think)
     
  6. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Everyone needs to be brought to Christ? (aren't we meant to come via our own volition?)

    Actually that part is very much an invention of a Church desperate for members, people are meant to come to Christ of their own volition and ask for forgiveness, which will then be granted.

    I really don't mind that people want to believe in these things (without beleif in something then we are generally sick people) I just don't like when they try to force these things on me and others who don't to hear it. Beleif should be a private thing that is different in each person.

    Agree completely, you can argue about it, but only with the other persons consent.

    And how do you define prayer? Asking a higher power for help, guidance or comfort? Wanting something really badly that you would pray for it to happen (someone survive a horrific accident for example) but don't but still want it (subconcious praying?)?

    Asking something that you believe in to make something happen, help, a miracle, anything. Has to be conscious though.

    and besides addiction implies that we like the reaction and want more or that the body comes to expect it and need it to function normally.
    *chuckles* has any died from not praying? Only because they had prayed many times a day for the majority of their life, suffered some great injustice then refused to pray anymore. The body is "addicted" to prayer and when the brain reaction stops the body rebels and in the "rehabilitation" sustains so much damage that the person dies.

    Well this is a difficult one to argue, people do recover faster, and from more serious conditions, when there is prayer for them. Scientific studies have confirmed this several times so far. No one has died through not praying, or stopping prayer.

    Does this brain activity actually do anything? cause a chemical reaction? secrete a druglike substance (the new designer drug - God)? anyone know?

    A bit like exercise, it releases endorphins.

    Or is it just an antenna like thing that we activate for telepathy becuase we picture God as being so far away and we project our thoughts to it? (another tangential thread about telepathy here I think)

    Now telepathy is a whole other issue, and not one that I believe in unfortunately.
     
  7. Sean O

    Sean O New Member

    Very interesting thread. In fact it is so interesting that I just can't bear not to reply with my take on religion. Although at first it may seem like I'm out of my mind, please don't judge me until you've read everything.

    I am a Christian, as I was brought up to be, but to be honest, christianity doesn't make much sense to me. There are a few reasons why, so I'll make separate paragraphs for each.

    Christianity seems to be geared entirely towards humans. This seems strange, since if it IS the one true faith, what about all the animals? Theyre here with us on this earth, theyre also the children of god, but they don't seem to be all that important compared to humans. This brings me to another point...

    THOU SHALT NOT KILL

    Hold on a sec, don't jump to conclusions. I'm not opposed to this commandment, in fact, murders sicken me. This rule just doesn't make much sense to me. If it's true, every single animal who ever lived long enough to hunt is going straight to hell. Same thing for anyone whos ever flushed a spider down their toilet. If the rule had been THOU SHALT NOT KILL NEEDLESSLY or IN COLD BLOOD, then things would start to make alot more sense. But, seems like alot of us are sinners. And of course all sinners to go to...

    HELL

    Which is my next topic. Why would god create all this life, which he/she loves with all his/her heart, and then send it to a place of infinate pain and suffering? Once again, doesn't make much sense. If you don't follow the rules, you go to hell. If you do, you go to...

    HEAVEN

    Although I like the idea of heaven, I just don't generally believe that when you die, you go there if you have lived a devout life. Reincarnation (spelling?) makes much more sense to me. Just like the earth reuses corpses for fertilization, maybe GOD reuses the spirits of the dead to keep life going? It's my opinion of course, which reminds me...

    I HOPE I HAVENT OFFENDED ANYONE WITH THIS REPLY

    Keep in mind that I am not trying to bash religion in general. I believe in a greater being just like alot of other people, I just want to express my thoughts, maybe stir up an interesting conversation. I have nothing against any of the religions whatsoever, and I completely respect the beliefs of their followers. But, I've gotten off topic. The point I wanted to get to is...

    I THINK THE NATIVE PEOPLES WERE RIGHT

    Consider the native peoples' beliefs; everyone and everything is created equal, the only rule you have to live by is to respect one another (this of course, includes animals and plants). The only real disrespect you will have to commit is to kill another animal for food, clothing, etc. To make it right, you apoligize to the fallen animal, and not be wasteful by using everything you can. Sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Life made simple.

    I really think that any religion with lots of commandments and requirements was just created by the government to keep its people under control 2000 years ago. You wonder how there are so many religions? Different governments need to do/say different things to keep their people under control. But look at the result: religious differences have caused assault, murder, and even wars. People are so blinded by hatred for another religion that they will do things that their own religion forbids.

    Of course, its far too late to change anything without massive retaliation, so I suppose we must live with the world we have created. But then again, in my opinion, we can't really depend on god to help us fix all that has happened, since he/she simply created life, for whatever reason.

    Religion has separated us. But of course, it has also brought us together. I'm sure that many of you have good friends who you maybe met at church. Religion also brings us solice, because no matter what your beliefs are, we all need to turn to our god for help every now and then. And regardless of whether something happens or not, its always nice to have someone listen. So I suppose religion is whatever you make it to be, if it makes you happy, or a better person, then don't change a thing. If it separates you from others, does more bad then good, consider what you're missing out on.

    To finish this up, I'll tell you guys what I think of life. People who sit on their front porch, gaze up at the sky and wonder what the meaning of life is are wasting their time. We won't ever know this, in my opinion. Rather than wondering why, wonder what, meaning what you want to do with your life. Set a realistic goal, then plan how you're going to accomplish that goal.

    I'm mentioning this because religion is probably the biggest influence on this decision. Like I said before, it is designed to keep us under control, which is why so many religious people live rich and full lives. Religion gives us direction, something to base our decisions on. Thats why most (if not all) of the people sitting in prison right now are either athiests, or just don't take religion seriously.

    I guess to sum all this up, religion is a mixed blessing, but I'd say it does much more good than bad. That's my opinion.

    Sean O
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2002
  8. taesujutsu

    taesujutsu New Member

    Ok Gang,
    First let me say that I am an ordained minister,,but please just read on. and you will find out that I am not like others.

    The 5th commandmant which state "Thou Shall not Kill", in the
    King James bibles, and those newr translations from it , not what the commandment says.

    When translated from the Hebrew Literally it states "You shall not MURDER". So yes i can see how it causes confusion.
    It is permitable to Kill if defneding ones life or your won. However, to wontly plan to take a life is wrong.
    6 of the Ten commandmants came from the commandsments that God gave to Noahid, and are referred to as "Noahide laws", or laws of morality. It is how someone of the Jewish Religion sees a "righteous" Gentile.

    Please do not confuse True Christianty with Religious Christianity.
    True Christianty follows the teachings of Jesus, and it does not in any way try to force others to believe as we do, nor does it condemn those who do not believe as we do.
    You can find the core of True Christianty in the Beattitudes, and the teachings of Jesus.
    Religous Christianty follows what is known as the "Pauline doctrine" which was created by the church and based on the teachings of Paul, who among other things, compared himself to Jesus, and state that all Christians are saints, and that we will jusdge the world. Anyway, I am not going to get started on the Pauline Doctrine..

    I bleive in a Creator, and I believe that creator has many names, depending who is speaking aobut said Creator. I also believe that we are connected not only to said creator, but also each other by the universal life force. What some of us call the Chi.

    I bleive that Jesus was the Son of God, considering the title was used by Jews for Extremely reigheous Jews...but I do not believe he is God in carnate.

    Anyway, just wanted to try nd help make some things that have been misunderstood a little cleareer. Please no that I do not mean to offend anyone here..I am only trying to help. :)

    Peace,
    Tae
     
  9. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    That’s a well written article Sean O, as always with religion a lot of people will disagree with everything you say, but that just proves a lot of the bad qualities religion consist of.

    I don’t believe governments created religion, but I do believe they have used it to control people and used it to justify many atrocities. I’m sure there would have been a lot fewer wars without it. I’m not sure how much fewer, because you only have to look at communist countries to see how they’ll justify conflicts in other ways.

    But as you say, religion has separated us and even been the foundation for the many “holy” wars. As any intelligent religious person would tell you its totally ludicrous to try and justify war with religion. The ones that would are either very simple minded or brainwashed into believing what is right or wrong. You could argue a lot of the trouble has come from taking the translations literally, but as Tae said, the original texts can be translated to mean different things. I truly believe any text is only a guide to living life in a more virtuous manor and not as a justification for conflict.

    I struggle to believe in religion, I like to question things until I can be sure its true or not, which isn’t really possible with religion. Blind faith is something I struggle with, but it doesn’t seem to be with the other people I attended an alpha course with. It was a sort of Christian course to get you kick started into religion. With many of them it was very simple, someone was either good or evil! I didn’t believe that, its too simplistic. Good people can be brainwashed into doing bad things. Even then they said they would pray for the health of evil people if they we’re ill! What about the lives of the people the evil ones we’re killing? I believe in what’s best for the greater good should be done. Then I disagreed with the discussion on greed, having 32” widescreen tv didn’t have to be gluttony. In that case why have a tv at all, wouldn’t a radio be sufficient. They ignored the fact that circulation of money boosts the economy creating wealth and therefore jobs etc. They preferred to live in their own little self righteous world, we’re the attendance at church was more important than being a good person.

    The principles of Buddhism sound better to me, even more believable, with the whole reincarnation thing instead of heaven/hell. And it takes into account animals!

    Maybe if Bruce Lee had lived a little longer he’d have applied Jeet Kune Do to religion. We could have had the “religion of no religion”. We’re people choose to do whats right for them, to live life in a good and virtuous way without the need to worship gods.
     
  10. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Now here is an issue I have difficulties with. My father is Lakota, my mother's family (mostly) is German Lutheran, the rest are Cherokee. So from that end I have been raised in many different beliefs by many people, none of which completely make sense to me anymore because none was fully taught.

    I have tried following the Bible, but each version has something in it that contradicts what another version says (leave it to modern translation), and many points there have been fairly well refuted by science. That makes problems for me because I am a generally logically thinking person, so science is usually what I rely more on for answers. Then again that makes little sense because I know I am not an athiest, I know there is "something" I just haven't come to a full conclusion of what I believe it is.

    I think this "religion of no religion" isn't a bad idea, at least for some of us lol.

    Rob
     
  11. energyboost

    energyboost New Member

    I don't belive in religion for 1 reason evrey religion has the same beliefs only warped to controll that section of people. I do believe in a creator that isn't everything but is rather manifested thru evreything from actions in nature to nature itself. When a flag waves in the wind, it's a manifestation of the creator. When dna rewrites itself to adapt and perpetuate itself, when you get kicked in the head and you get knocked out, when you observe how rediculous pop culture is, and wonder when people will search for something more than becoming a product of money and technology, that is the creator manifesting itself. When peoples conciousness shifts before we destroy ourselves it's a manifestation of the creator, all good and bad creates a crazy yet logical balance.
     
  12. Spike

    Spike New Member

    Quote form pgm316:

    Even then they said they would pray for the health of evil people if they we’re ill! What about the lives of the people the evil ones we’re killing?

    Andy Murray used to have a great sig. regardin this. A tolkien qoute if memory serves

    Quote from Waya:

    I have tried following the Bible, but each version has something in it that contradicts what another version says (leave it to modern translation), and many points there have been fairly well refuted by science. That makes problems for me because I am a generally logically thinking person, so science is usually what I rely more on for answers. Then again that makes little sense because I know I am not an athiest, I know there is "something" I just haven't come to a full conclusion of what I believe it is.

    If you look at things sensibly science is a smuch a leap of faith as religion. You`ll take it on trust that electricity is controlled by protons and electrons and such like, but you`ve never seen one.
    You simply believe what you`ve been told, what`s the difference between having faith in a man with a dog-collar or a man with a docterate? it`s still a question of faith.
     
  13. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    I got into soooo much trouble at school on this very subject.
    The head of Religious Education was also the head of Chemistry (bad haircut and suits as I recall, dandruff too). He was spouting off about God creating the universe in seven days and all that, when I asked him about the 'Big Bang' theory. He sputtered a bit, then foamed at the mouth, before flogging me for insolence. Never answered the question though.
    Hope his dandruff's better now!
     
  14. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    why we need religion/GOD? simple so that we can blame someone for our deeds...:D ;)
    doodes what r u arguing about?? :D
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  15. Spike

    Spike New Member

    we`re not arguing we are debating spirituality.
    If you look at the Christian idea of creation, and ignore the flowery language, its` not that far removed form ideas like the big bang or evolution.
     
  16. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    There is a lot of doubt over the old testament, and since its not the Christian holy book its kind of irrelevant, the Christian book is the new testament. As for points being refuted by science, no more points have been refuted than backed up.
     
  17. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    spike hey buds but wat i was doin just foolin around...
    religion is very sensitive topic so i don't put my nose in there...
    no offence intended....
    anyways if u r debating spirituality then don't combine it with religion becuase religion is just a path... not a destination...
    basically religion is like a kata(a set of pre-defined rules??may be)
    and it's being watered down by every so holy man(preist n all) they hav used it changed it for their own purpose...?
    if u wanna to be religious, stop following the religion first(it's not like condeming or anything but hav a faith/believe in it) and start questioning the basic belief in u... relgion basically tries to tell u wat is wrong or wat is rite... there's no difference b/w rite or wrong...whenever u r wrong u r rite too...n vice versa...
    the quest should be knowing urself, examinng urself...rather than set of rules... even written by god...
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  18. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    And yet kata still work, and still benefit you. You can learn from a kata, if you're smart, and know what you're looking for.
     
  19. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    ah ckdstudent u hav a bad habbit nit picking :D
    yup u r rite but wat if i say it depends on the bearer?...
    set of rules can be misintepreted easily?? can't they...

    u know i met a woman who was totally anti-islam u know why? because she thinks in Islam men beats the heck out of woman sometimes even causes death... and she says it's in koran? i asked her resources i found out that happens mostly in Afghanistan/middle east... where Taliban used to hav a regime...
    there taliban's guys hav misinterpreted the koran so much it wasn't left as a koran....IT's the power of misinterpretion...
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  20. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Of course it depends on the bearer, that's the whole point. Have to say though that it'd take quite an effort to misinterpret most of the ten commandments.

    Thou shalt not kill - not much room for interpretation
     

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