Well, yes, Jesus was allegedly the messiah, but according to the new testament and what Jesus said, well - he never said it was okay to use violence for anything! Think of the garden of gethsemane when John cut the soldiers ear off with his sword. Jesus healed the blokes ear back on an let them arrest him. In fact Jesus never attempted to defend himself, so if you take the new testament literally - well Martial Arts is technically contradictory to that surely?
Who is the more moral? The person who lives a moral life for fear of god and aspiring to go to heaven? Or the person who does the same but does it from a selfless desire to do what's right? I don't live a moral life because of fear of God, my place in heaven is assured because of my faith in Jesus as my Saviour. If it boiled down to wether I had been a good person all my life then I most certainly would not be assured of a place in heaven. So what we can all do what we want? Repent and accept Jesus as savious etc, and that's fair? What about the people in the world who have never heard of Jesus? They are damned to eternal torment in hell are they? That's my arguement, people should be bright enough these days to live a decent life without all the fire and brimstone. I was in a Church service some time ago, when the vicar started preaching that how you live your life doesn't matter as much as how often you come to church? Surely that's not what you should teach? I think you would be hard pressed to find a church these days that preaches fire and brimstone! I agree that that vicar was wrong, was it a C of E church by any chance? I think that was the particular flavour of christianity, but I've heard it said in several places through proverbs and sermons. The trouble is, Christianity is a bit like a business, they need to come to church to support the organisation which obviously costs alot of money to uphold. Sure they so some good works, but then so do the masons, oxfam, douglas mcmillan, etc. Of course all these organisations have costs to run, that's inevitable - most of them don't need a banner of religion as an excuse to help people though. Interestingly, the concept of hell was not originally a Christian concept, it was taken from Greek religion, as was the idea of a soul. Alot of Christian folk believe in the soul, but again, the concept was taken from Greek religion. How they do it is there own business, but all religions are there for control over people. That's their main purpose as far as I can see. The man who lives a selfless altruistic life and constantly strives to help his fellow man but never went to church or believed in god is less likely to get to heavan than a liar/theif/rapist/murder who goes to church alot and repents? Yes, but only because that person who was a liar/theif/rapist/murderer has repented. If they were like a lot of people who go to church but don't have a personal faith in Jesus as their Saviour then they would not be assured of heaven either. I can't believe you accept that as fair. Accepting Jesus as saviour cannot atone for the evil that men have done. EVER! So say Hitler turned around at the end of the holocaust, accepted Jesus as saviour and repented of his sins? I'm sure st.Peter would welcome him with open arms at the pearly gate after trying to commit genocide on gods people.... I know that's an extreme example, I hope it doesn't cause offence - but the principle applies. Sorry but that doesn't wash with me, if there was a god and that WAS his rule then I wouldn't worship him - it's stupid That's the thing about Christianity, it's not about us earning our way to heaven it's about accepting that we are sinners and accepting the gift of salvation and an assurance of heaven given by God by trusting in Jesus as our Saviour. I have a friend who is not a Christian, he believes that he is a moral person. Not lying, gives to charity, tries to be good to others around him. But he also uses pornography and smokes drugs, one which is degrading to women and the other that is illegal. The point is it does'nt matter how big the sin, or how many times you do it that matters. It's that you choose to no longer to do that sin and trust God to forgive your sins through the atonment of Jesus on the cross. Well to me there's some flaws in your asessment of your friends morality. Legality and morality are different. There are laws out there which have nothing to do with morality and it's very dangerous to accept law as a moral code. Pornography, sure it's all a bit seedy, I don't look at the stuff myself, but consenting adults making a living from being filmed/photographed - if they are happy to do that then it's their choice. If they aren't they should get another job. I don't think it said anywhere in the bible, new or old testament that it was a sin to look at porn. Drugs you say? And who said you shouldn't smoke drugs? Lawmakers, politicians, political financial backers of the government who happen to have huge stakes in cigarette companies? Didn't God say to Adam something about the earth being his for the using, except the fruit from the tree of wisdom? He never said, " Adam, thous shalt not burn and inhale these particualr plants." And speed limits? To go faster than the limit is a sin I suppose too? If that were such a set in stone evil thing to do why do different countries have different speed limits? If people lived by a few general, simple rules such as treat people how they would like to treated. Do no harm, and try and make the world a better place... Of course that sort of morality is subjective and requires some intelligience to effect. Personally I think alot of people have that intelligience, and shouldn't need to ratify their lives and actions by sitting on cold pews for hours on end singing psalms. It's been suggested that Jesus actually told his disciples that you don't need the church, and if god is omnipresent why would you? Sure it's nice to meet with people with similar beliefs to you, but the entity that gains most from people going to church is THE church. If he did say that then I don't the church would allow it to e kept in the printed bible. The same as nowadays nobody reads the apocrapher(sp?) the book between the old testament and the new testament. Which is a shame because there are some fantastic peices of literature within, Tobit particularly is great. Didn't Jesus say, "Those who have eyes - let them see?" I have eyes, I see, and the concept of religion is screwed. It's caused so much suffering in the world, pointless suffering that in my eyes it can never be forgiven. I don't think it was Jesus fault, I think it's the corrupt church leaders interpretting things how the hell they want and screwing with people's lives for the pursuit of power.
Wow. For people who hate Christian prosletyzing so much, there sure is a lot of prosletyzing going on in this thread.
Try proselytize |?präs?l??t?z| verb [ trans. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another : the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ intrans. ] proselytizing for converts | [as n. ] ( proselytizing) no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action) : Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas. DERIVATIVES proselytizer noun Still waiting for MAP version 3.5 with instant spell-check.
There are few things in this world more scary than someone who believes they are going to heaven because they believe in Jesus.
So what we can all do what we want? Repent and accept Jesus as savious etc, and that's fair? What about the people in the world who have never heard of Jesus? They are damned to eternal torment in hell are they? No we cannot do what we want, to be a true follower of Jesus then you would follow his teachings. If you said you were a follower but then did things that were wrong, well I think that that would prove that you were not really a christian. As for those who haven't heard of Jesus then they will be judged on their actions in life. I think that was the particular flavour of christianity, but I've heard it said in several places through proverbs and sermons. The trouble is, Christianity is a bit like a business, they need to come to church to support the organisation which obviously costs alot of money to uphold. Sure they so some good works, but then so do the masons, oxfam, douglas mcmillan, etc. Of course all these organisations have costs to run, that's inevitable - most of them don't need a banner of religion as an excuse to help people though. Interestingly, the concept of hell was not originally a Christian concept, it was taken from Greek religion, as was the idea of a soul. Alot of Christian folk believe in the soul, but again, the concept was taken from Greek religion. How they do it is there own business, but all religions are there for control over people. That's their main purpose as far as I can see. You don't actually come to church as the church is the people. The building in which the church meets is wrongly called the church. Oxfam is a christian charity. Never heard of Douglas McMillan. The Christian concept of hell aswell as it's concept of the soul comes from Judaism and not Greek religion. With Hell being based on Shoel the huge rubbish tip outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem. You may think that religion is to control people and many do, but not all are tarred with the same brush. I can't believe you accept that as fair. Accepting Jesus as saviour cannot atone for the evil that men have done. EVER! So say Hitler turned around at the end of the holocaust, accepted Jesus as saviour and repented of his sins? I'm sure st.Peter would welcome him with open arms at the pearly gate after trying to commit genocide on gods people.... I know that's an extreme example, I hope it doesn't cause offence - but the principle applies. No, believing in Jesus does not atone for the evil that men have done. The sinless sacrifice of Jesus on the cross atones for those sins. And yes I do beleive that if Hitler did really repent and submit himself to God that he would be accepted. Jesus didn't die for only the good people of the world, he died for all the sinners of the world. The apostle Paul helped in the murder of many Christians before his conversion on the Damascus road, did the remaining Christians turn there back on him? No they accepted him as a new brother in Christ. Well to me there's some flaws in your asessment of your friends morality. Legality and morality are different. There are laws out there which have nothing to do with morality and it's very dangerous to accept law as a moral code. Pornography, sure it's all a bit seedy, I don't look at the stuff myself, but consenting adults making a living from being filmed/photographed - if they are happy to do that then it's their choice. If they aren't they should get another job. I don't think it said anywhere in the bible, new or old testament that it was a sin to look at porn. Drugs you say? And who said you shouldn't smoke drugs? Lawmakers, politicians, political financial backers of the government who happen to have huge stakes in cigarette companies? No there is no flaws in my assesment. When you choose to break the law then you make a moral choice to do something ilegal. Porn would come under fornaction, Jesus said to even have lustful thoughts about another person was adultry. Who says you shouldn't smoke drugs? The government, doctors, judges, the police. As for the financial backers of the government, it's been illegal in the UK for some time now to accept funds from backers who are involved with big buisiness. Didn't God say to Adam something about the earth being his for the using, except the fruit from the tree of wisdom? He never said, " Adam, thous shalt not burn and inhale these particualr plants." And speed limits? To go faster than the limit is a sin I suppose too? If that were such a set in stone evil thing to do why do different countries have different speed limits? And he also never said thou shalt burn and inhale them either. Breaking the speed limits is against the law and if your caught you get fined or even banned. They are there to save life, so should be observed. As for the differing os speed limits in different coutries, you would find that on a whole they are not that much different. The major exception being motorways which do not generally have pedestrians on them. If people lived by a few general, simple rules such as treat people how they would like to treated. Do no harm, and try and make the world a better place... Of course that sort of morality is subjective and requires some intelligience to effect. Personally I think alot of people have that intelligience, and shouldn't need to ratify their lives and actions by sitting on cold pews for hours on end singing psalms. The problem with personal morality is that it's personal. Most people would accept what you say, treat people as you would like to be treated, do no harm, try and make the world a better place, as these are Christian values. But when you let people set their own moral ruleset then we get things like the Holocaust happening. As for sitting on cold pews singing psalms, never done it myself. It's been suggested that Jesus actually told his disciples that you don't need the church, and if god is omnipresent why would you? Sure it's nice to meet with people with similar beliefs to you, but the entity that gains most from people going to church is THE church. If he did say that then I don't the church would allow it to e kept in the printed bible. Like I said before the church is the people not the building. And people meet together to help each other, to pray together and to praise God. We are told to do it in the scriptures. The same as nowadays nobody reads the apocrapher(sp?) the book between the old testament and the new testament. Which is a shame because there are some fantastic peices of literature within, Tobit particularly is great. I think that the many hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics around the world will be upset that you say they don't read the Apocrypha as it's in the scripture. Didn't Jesus say, "Those who have eyes - let them see?" I have eyes, I see, and the concept of religion is screwed. It's caused so much suffering in the world, pointless suffering that in my eyes it can never be forgiven. I don't think it was Jesus fault, I think it's the corrupt church leaders interpretting things how the hell they want and screwing with people's lives for the pursuit of power. What suffering around the world is the church causing? Yes there are corrupt church leaders as there are curupt leaders in most organisations around the world. Does that mean the whole church is bad? No!
There are few things in this world more scary than someone who believes that TKD is a traditional art not based on karate.
Well, the Shotokan guys never cease to impress me with their jump spinning hook kicks and free fighting. Anyway, that's another thread.
So is talking about religious affliations with martial arts or religion in general. The first post in this thread was about a specific school and a question was asked. All of you keep ignoring neryo... Also if any of you think that this conversation is headed somewhere and is worth pursuing need to take a look in the religion section of MAP forums (oh yes we do have one). This cyberspace jihad goes nowhere and just gets the atheist vs Christian crap riled up for another internet crusade. Please let science and God have a break, they've existed this long without your help, I believe they can continue to do so without us...
Neryo, this wasn't intended as disrespect, but it is an act of modesty - Islamic men and women aren't allowed to shake hands with members of the opposite sex outside of their family. It is a question of space, intimacy, and modesty. Similarly, you and I generally wouldn't kiss a stranger upon meeting them. It's not a matter of disapproval or superiority. The same restrictions apply to Orthodox Jews. Many times, however, I've seen them greet members of the opposite sex, particularly non-muslims, by placing their hand on their chest and doing a small bow, by way of apology. To my mind, it is a gracious, and acceptable substitute. It is unfortunately this fellow did not do this - It could be ingraciousness, or there could be other subtleties I am unaware of. Hope that helps.
I have a church I go to and I used to have a dojang I attended.I never did martial arts in church and I never prayed or read scripture at the dojang.Tkd has a moral code,a code that is suposed to extend past class.Church is the sameway,its supposed to get into every aspect of your life.But for me,the two are separate.Martial arts is for fun,fitness and self defense,with a moral code that is inline with my religous beliefs.But the dojang(martial arts),while positive,is not devine. Would I join this school?Most likly not.Do I see a problem with it?No,to each his own.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I could write another X hundred word rebuttal but there's no point - there's clearly no changing YOUR point of view, and I can assure you there's no changing my point of view. Yes, the church has cleaned it's act up a bit, I've already quoted alot of the reasons why the church HAS caused suffering over the years, I could add the sorry state England was in when the religion of the monarch changed regularly and anyone who didn't change from catholic to protestant at the right time would be burned at the stake as a heretic... There's more than that too... The list is long... I think we should leave it at that, I think I've at least made my perspective and point of view very clear and explained where it comes from. I don't want to get into an endless debate on this topic again though. I've been there done that and bought several T-shirts, you believe what you like, I'll believe what I like.
I just couldn't let this one go. I'm a little behind, but I just couldn't let this one go! I'd rather people think me a troll as a nood than to repeatedly open my mouth and remove all doubt of being a troll! Of course, we're not talking about religion, we're talking about Christianity! And I'd LOVE to hear how any aspect of Christianity (not to be confused with Catholicism which is not the same) negatively affects ANY aspect of life, unless you're a murderer, rapist or thief, of course! Yes, I agree! Thank God, indeed. Of, course, I don't know which one is yours, but that's OK! He's obviously one who would rather you dead if you follow too closely! Sorry, I suspect your remark was just flippant. But, I really DO care if religion (specifically Christianity) is cheapened. And I do care that you cheapen TKD by implying that there is no room for MY religion in the sport but yours is OK?!? Oh, by the way. I haven't heard one good argument for not including Christianity in a TKD club. Keep in mind, no-one is forcing their members to do anything they don't want.
How is Catholicism not the same as christianity? I'm just curious what your point of view is on this.
TKD is a world wide phenomenon, and covers many different cultures and religions. The western world is huge on multi culturalism, and with this in mind would it be fair to incorporate a specific relgion into TKD there by alienating all other relgious denominations? TKD is meant to be for everyone, and no one should feel segregated because of their beliefs. Is that a good arguement?
Many subtile differences but... Mostly in that "a fly is a bug but a bug is not a fly". The Catholic Church is considered to be Christian church by everyone but themselves (they of course believe they are the ONLY Christian church). Beyond that (and all, please forgive me for going off topic), they have removed Christ as the center of the church and replaced him with the Pope and his priests. Christ is the only way to speak to God, and he is the only one (by virue of also being God himself. Please don't ask me to explain in this forum as others would be DEEPLY offended) who can forgive sins. Many of the non-Christians in this thread are absolutely correct that religion has causes a great deal of anguish and death throughout history. Unfortunately, they don't understand the difference between real Christianity (which does not have a denomination like Catholic or Jehovahs Witness, etc.) and the political religious affilitations. Chirtianity in the pursuit of living a life modelled by Christ Himself and not any man. BTW. The Crusaders not only murders countless thousands of Muslims, they also murders thousands of Jews (because Jews murdered Christ!?!?! What morons! Christ WAS a Jew!) The only people Christ offended were the ones that would lose power or money by living the life He called us to live. Again, I appologize for this digression. Please don't flame me. If anyone wishes more converstaion in this area, I suggest the Religion thread http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81 or you can send me a private message.
