Religion and Martial Arts.

Hi peeps,

Many Martial arts are based on the yin yang concept. For every move downwards there is a move upwards. The idea of yin and yang comes from Taoism. Every thing is balanced and thus martial arts is balanced too; For every move downwards there is a move upwards, and for every move forward there is a move backwards etc.

So many martial arts are based on Taoism.

Now is my question: if your martial art is using this balance of yin and yang, do you also belief in the yin and yang concept and the Tao?
Or maybe you combine other religions whit your martial art?

 

remeber alot of them are buddhist based and not nescesarily taoist. though they are similiar philosophies and often crossed, do not get confused.

 

True, but the form of Buddism associated with many martial arts is Zen, and that is a form of Buddism which originated in China and was heavily influenced by Taoism.

 

The idea of duality is hardly limited to Taoism, or even Eastern thought.

Western thinkers have been saying the same things for thousands of years, it's just that nobody listens.

 

But isn't the concept of 'duality' something to do with two things which are opposite and mutually-exclusive?

 

Well I say many not all
And Zen is some sort of combination of Taoism and Buddhism from china.

I didn't take the ritual that makes you a Buddhist but I see my self as one and I also belief in the tao.

But I don't combine my beliefs whit the martial arts I practice.

Do you guys?

 

Shai'tan,

I did Tai Chi before I'd heard of Taoism, and I only heard of Taoism as a result of doing Tai Chi. I found Taoism hard to understand, but the more I practised Tai Chi then the more the Tao Te Ching made sense to me.

PS: doesn't your nickname mean 'Satan'?

 

Balance just makes sense. So philosophically, yeah, I suppose I'd go along with that. But I don't really incorporate any sort of religion into my martial arts since I'm pretty much agnostic.

Nothing wrong with it if someone wants to incorporate Jesus/Buddha/God/etc into their art. The base philosophies of these religions are very compatible with what I see as the core philosophy of martial arts: nonviolence... harmony... balance.

I do enjoy watching Jet Li beat the crap out of someone, though. Speaking of Jet Li, watch Hero now that it has finally opened in US theaters.

 

yes, it does. But I don't have that nickname because of that. I like the sound of Shai'tan and it looks nice.

I first read the name in the book "the wheel of time" and then I started to use it as a nickname. Some time ago some one told me that it means satan but I still like the word.

I have seen that move and it awsome, the scene I like the most is the one were Jet li "noname" fight brokensword on water .

A "must see" movie.

 

First off, the yin & yang is a concept that Taoism embraced it actually belongs to another school of philosophy during china's 100 schools period.

To be honest I found the Tao Te Ching easy to understand. Mind you I have done a lot of research in that area so perhaps it’s easy for me to say that.

If you find Lao Tzu hard to understand try reading Chuang Tzu’s stories, they explain the Tao by examples.

I couldn't disagree more.

Read this site: http://www.agapy.com/cma/

And here are my objections to it:

1), removing the old spiritual beliefs and traditions to suite the beliefs of its 'students'...I think the principles are being ignorantly undermined...replacing traditional ideas to Christ. Removing the (if I take kendo as a exp.) spirit of the samurai, with the spirit of Christ (yes, I know about St. Xavier) the bushido code, with the 10 commandments, I fear that teachings will be distorted. The philosophy of the art will be compromised, with that of Christ. Thus what you learn, is to become a good old 'Christian soldier'

2) Martial arts around the world all form a sub-culture, and many have their own superstitions...
Learning akido is a small outlet to learn Japanese culture and spiritual beliefs...this would be defied by Christ....the Zen aspect of akido could be removed and replaced by what? Prayer?.... martial arts are a way of learning and understanding the beliefs/cultures of others placing Christ at the centre is intolerance, and ignorance. (On the maker’s behalf)

3) I don't understand why the principles of an art have to be undermined by Christ.... why must Christ and martial arts ever meet? The fact that someone has needlessly ripped apart generations of teachings ****es me off. What if I took African slave music and got britney spears singing a song about 'hard times' (what dress to wear) over the top of it.... its called disrespect. (Respect being the essence of any art form)

4) The idea that "Christ sells" if your Christian I think your manipulated by *some* companies selling you your belief through a shiny copy of the bible or a stain glass window for the kitchen...if your Christian, and want to learn martial arts.... would you fell obliged to learn a 'Christ martial art' as a extension for ‘godly worship’ if that’s the case and your paying for it. You’re paying your way to heaven.

Ditto, I would be ****ed off if the martial were mixed with any religion unless, the 'spirit' of the art is kept.
I.e. Taoism and Wudang have fused from generations. Wudang philosophy is shared with Taoism. But mixing Christ with wudang corrupts the style.

 

It might be helpful to realise that 'Christ' probably has very little say in what people do in his name... just like the Buddha or Mohammad and so on.

 

I've known excellent exponents of 'fighting' arts who are clueless about philosophy and religion, but it is impossible to call yourself a 'martial artist' unless you are trained in the underlying beliefs of that art. You don't have to accept all of them, however, but you MUST know what they are. How many aikidoka, for example, have any understanding at all of the religious sect the founder followed, 'OOMOTO' (www.oomoto.or.jp) . Thus was not Zen, Shinto or Taoism, yet I've seen very few mentions of a sect Ueshiba devoted his life to following. Why? Because it's not esy to follow.
P>S> Zen did not originate in China with Ch'an! Try India and Dhyana Buddhism. If you dig deep enough you will also find the origins of most Japanese and Chinese martial arts in India. They migrated as an integral part of Buddhism. Incidentally, Buddhists are able to follow all other major religions which are morally compatible, so it's often the case that a Taoist or follower of Shinto is also a Buddhist.

 

religion

personally, i take goju ryu karate but i am an advent christian. i dont combine the two i even go out of my way to seperate them. i know the karate philosophies but i regard them as a means of learning all aspects of the martial art.
but thats just me,
_kickass

 

In fairness kiaki, Ch'an Buddhism is accepted to be what Zen Buddhism originates from. Ch'an Buddhism obviously was influenced by earlier forms of Buddhism from India however this is not the same thing as saying Ch'an Buddhism is Dhyana Buddhism in a different name. Ch'an Buddhism had a distinctly Chinese (and some would say Taoist) character to it that wasn't present in the forms from India.

Also, the notion of all martial arts from Japan or China originating in India I find a bit far fetched. I've heard some arguments for this and they hardly present irrefutable evidence for a start after the arrival of Buddhism in East Asia authenticity and authority was often considered one in the same as being able to trace a trail of influence back to India, so you should expect to find one or two instances were this is the case.

Lastly as for Buddhism & Shinto & Taoism, I agree its always been a fairly inclusive religion .

 

Guess we're quite close in what we say so I'll just reiterate the word 'originate'. - I never said it was the same thing using a different name. If you re-read you'll see I also don't make a claim for ALL, just MOST originating in India. Ever seen the locks and presure point techniques, throws and pins in Kalari in the state of Kerala? How about the whole 'ki' and 'prana' linkage? I daresay the Indians learned these from somewhere else but I think it's safe to say that the farthest back we can trace the origins of Buddhism (and the Jain faith) is the Vedic roots of India. Can anyone show me a source of documentary evidence for a modern Chinese or Japanese martial art in China or Japan whose origins predate Buddhism?

 

Well kiaki I apologise for taking you up wrong. I must admit to not being that well informed about ancient Indian martial arts so I have a few questions (sorry to sidetrack the thread by the way Im just quite interested). Before that however as to the 'ki' and 'prana' linkage I really couldn't comment as I dont know enough about prana that said however its quite common for similiar concepts to pop up in different regions, this does not however mean one came (or was heavily influenced) by the other. For an illustration, when Christians came in contact with Tibetan Buddhism they saw lots of parallels between the Catholic hierarchy and the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy this lead to some Catholics claiming Tibetan Buddhism had been influenced by the mystical Prestor John and likewise some Protestants saw the similarities as proof that the Catholic Church was a heresy controlled by the devil. The truth however is that the Catholic Church may bear some similarities to the Tibetan Buddhist 'church' but they are not the same thing, perhaps like 'ki' and 'prana'.

Now the questions:

Does the fact that there are locks,throws and pins in Kalari necessarily mean that most pins, locks and throws in East Asian martial arts must have developed from it? Why could it not simply be that there are only so many ways to lock, throw and pin a human body (i.e. similar techniques are bound to pop up)?

Can we really verify the vedic origins of these arts? If so please point me in the direction of the information (no one sided accounts though- I can probably find a book claiming all martial arts developed in Ireland if I looked hard enough!).

*once again sorry for the derailing*

 

Never mind , I'm quite interested too.

 

That reminded me the physics theory: For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction... I am sure that physics does play a big part in MA as well!

 

Sorry, can't find books linking Kalari with the others as I think its migration was first to northern India and then onwards through the Buddhist monks and their journeys spanned many centuries, taking their religion and martial arts with them.. I'm making an assumption based on the age of these things - for example Yogis practising prana yoga were documented in Nepal in about 1,000BC and again by Alexander the Gt in 326 BC. It is also mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of about the same date, I think. A good start is the Spiritual teachings of Yoga (authors: Forstater & Manuel). I can't be absolutely sure when 'ki' was first used in Japan, but I think it was many hundreds of years later. Buddhism certainly took at least another 1,000 years to reach China and Japan. The Vedas, some over 5,000 years old, were learned by Buddha's generation, adapted and moved on. They have many military and martial references, but I can't fight my way out of this chair ....