It sounds as if what you're saying is that the study of traditional Wu Shu went hand in hand w/a study of the Tao Te Ching.Which certainly wasn't so, at least for most folks. What do you mean by " lao tzu - another "to defend"."? I don't think you're trying to sound hazy on purpose but to us bumpkins the statement quoted above on its own is meaningless.
<It sounds as if what you're saying is that the study of traditional Wu Shu went hand in hand w/a study of the Tao Te Ching.Which certainly wasn't so, at least for most folks.>> No, I did not. I did not say anything about "most folks" at all or seek to pigeon hole even shao lin. It sounds to me like that is what some seek or feel they need to do somehow for their own self and I think "for their own self" is all the answer ever will be. Even if such surveyed all shao lin for "beliefs" and even had a box for "real shao lin or actor?" The person who went to all that trouble would look at the answer and say "bah! Knew I was right!" Haha which is really all I get out of a number of these threads. Someone desperate to pigeonhole a matter so they can feel relief. <hat do you mean by " lao tzu - another "to defend"."? I don't think you're trying to sound hazy on purpose but to us bumpkins the statement quoted above on its own is meaningless.>> No not "vague" or very "mystic" at all? To defend one's own mind, path and dignity from all the flying tumbleweed so what litter of the world? Immunity from attitudes, persons and statements like yours - ? Duh? The old "I don't wanna get it or can't so it's stupid and nobody does" crowd. We are all not going to convert downwards to "oba lin" because the world keeps filling up with....well.
You are talking gibberish - I am not even going to hide it behind me "perhaps having a slow day" because I am not. Try again and rather than smashing random letters on the keyboard try and make a cogent post out of them
Yes, yes it does bother me in any context. But I particularly dislike Christian MA schools. Now, the question was about pushing one's religion in a school. This is not the same thing as an instructor having a belief that you end up knowing about because it comes up once in awhile. But those schools (and I have only seen Christian ones doing this - someone tell me if they have experience with another religion doing this) that use MA for the cool factor to get people into their religion- I really dislike! If your religion isn't good enough to bring people in on it's own merits, than it has a problem. Doing a bait and switch "hey come in and study MA- oh btw and join our religion" really bothers me. If we are talking about Asian Traditional religions, Christianity was NOT the religion associated with MA- they are interjecting themselves where it has no historical origin and connection. I wouldn't go to a school that got too heavily into Buddhism or an Asian based religion either, but at least there is some historical connection to make a case for it.
Has anyone encountered any religious martial arts groups outside of the US? I have never come across one in the UK (admittedly I have never looked for one) but I'm wondering if this may be an American phenominon?
I don't think it's as much of an issue in the UK although I bet many boxing clubs have been linked to churches I expect it's almost a Christians duty to spread the word? The only issue is knowing when to stop? You know it's time to leave when it becomes uncomfortable, usually happens really quickly with me
Yes, I do agree that there should def. be separation. Christian expressions seem largely about athletics and that is what they were seeking. There were lots of Christian clubs in the south like it maybe was better for business if they were? I have not been to one to really know?
chadderz, liking a bunch of stolen videos that Godvine steals from youtube and then posts as their own is one thing. Plastering a bunch of God and Religious memes is different. Why does this bother me? It's subversive behaviour. I have seen it a lot and am seeing it creep into martial arts more and more these days. It starts with one, little thing, like a couple of religious memes. Then it expands to prayer requests. Before you know it, they're holding Bible Reunions at that school. This crap only happens in America. And this is precisely why it bothers me. Oh, and Hannibal, I would appreciate if you stick to the topic discussed and not try to veer away to some of my comments on other threads. I believe there is a thread in this group that specifically mentions staying on topic in this group for that very reason.
It was exactly on topic and was used as an analogy - shame you chose to look at that diversion rather than the rest of the post You don't get to dictate what happens in a discussion
I'm reposting this sticky just for you Hannibal. What you said had nothing to do with this topic and this sticky addresses that very topic. When I created about about DH and martial arts it was about DH & Martial Arts. When I commented on a thread about cancer I shared what I've discovered as a 26 year vegan. You may not like what I posted but it was responding to the specific post. Send a message via MSN to wrydolphin Off Topic Posting There has been a problem of late on MAP with threads being diverted, sometimes purposefully, from the topic at hand. This is true in the religion forum as well. If you feel the need to make a point that is NOT addressed by the topic of the thread, please find a thread that suits the topic or make a new thread. Thank you.
So, if you need to comment on my veganism, comments about Dental Health, etc. then please do so on those threads or create a new one. I can't guarantee you I will respond if you feel you need to single me out but that is exactly what wrydolphin has requested.
:topic:mdgee, I have a friendly suggestion. While you are busy posting quotes from the TOS, perhaps you should note the part that tells you how to properly handle things if you think the TOS has been violated. :
My school actually modifies tradition a little to avoid any perceived religious connotations. CLF schools often have an altar to the ancestors/ lineage/ past masters of our tradition. Pictures of the past masters above a little altar/ shrine thing. It's a small table with incense. My GM's school has one. My school has images of the past masters up, and you do bow to them as you enter and leave the school, but there is no table/ altar type setup with it. It takes any perception of religion and is just about showing respect to those that gave us our style. Now I have no conflict in my beliefs with any sort of thing that resembles an ancestor shrine setup, but I can see how those of other religions might not be comfortable with that. I attached some random image I found of a CLF altar to the past masters.
I had a girlfriend for several years who was of the Reformed Jewish persuasion. Very interesting character - had a lot of personality, interests and unique views on life. But the moment something about Christianity came up and she'd have an almighty conniption fit. Suddenly, this educated person of reason and temperance would just loose it. Have to say, never saw her have a problem with Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I remember once, she found out the people who lived next door to her were holding bible studies or something of that ilk in their home, she went berserk - called the police, later tried to sue them, LOL! I'd ask her about it once in a while when she'd get particularly riled about something and she'd have all these legalistic sounding arguments as to why whatever a given Christian or group of 'em were doing at the time was illegal ( she was very legalistic, but some of the steps she used to get there were...dodgy.) She would never come right out and say "Oh, Christianity is false" or "Christians as a whole are evil because..." - which bothered me a bit, 'cause then I could understand if she at least had some broad overview of things. But she wouldn't say. She'd just sabotage or attempt to sabotage, their individual doings, if she came across it. It was all about manipulating whatever system around her to shut them down or shut them up. Never could quite grasp that. Must be something in their mutually intertwined cultures that don't mix well. I never saw her act that way about anything else. Her mum was even worse and had even less of a logical link from Christian doings or whatever to her hate. Must be passed down. At the time, I was very young and my religious preoccupation then was attending Aleister Crowley lectures every week in this old house in a declining neighbourhood - thankfully she never had any problem with that, lol.
mdgee, Do you know what is happening here? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehINCcA0oL0&sns=em"]Sumo - Greeting of the opponent - YouTube[/ame]
Another insight into the connection with martial arts. Starts at about 8:46. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3IFK46RDbc&sns=em"]The Way of the Warrior : The Samurai Way - 3/4 - Katori Shinto Ryu - www.thesamuraiworkshop.com - YouTube[/ame] Continues here. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSO7wJ3wmdk&sns=em"]The Way of the Warrior : The Samurai Way - 4/4 - Katori Shinto Ryu - www.thesamuraiworkshop.com - YouTube[/ame]
One reason this has come up is because of your, let's say, forthright nature with regards to veganism. Are you like this in person and is it something you would do in other more orthodox social settings? I'm asking this because you talk of beliefs being pushed on others and what not, so I wonder if you do a similar thing with your dietary beliefs. I won't insult you by assuming you can't see the relevance to this thread.
What exactly is subversive about a christian posting a Christian meme on face book? Subversive is quite a strong word and one that completely does not fit here. How does that definition fit? Hannibal pointed out that many of the big names in JKD are Christians so it is obviously not something controversial in the JKD community. Please stop trying to make it a bigger deal than it is. If you don't like the group then fine just stay away from them but remember they are not doing anything wrong. Mixing religion and martial arts makes no sense to me but I don't think its a crime, they have a right to free speech. The annoying thing about free speech is people are free to say things we disagree with, that applies here on Facebook and in the flesh.
belltoler, would you like me to tell you why? It's the same reason I freak out. Christians single us out for conversion. They automatically hear Jew and they suddenly race to see who can "convert" first. It may not be like that all the time but, trust me, we get it. Maybe I should have explained that but it's not something that most people understand. I don't even think Buddhists have to deal with the attacks on character. I once had a friend tell me on a trip back from Tennessee that I better really believe in what I was saying because "eternity was a long time to be separated". That guy is no longer my friend. If I had been mean, he would have been chucked on the side of the road in Tennessee and had a nice walk back to VA.
