But it's nowhere near as much weight as the combined EU membership or are you going to try to suggest that we spend more than 10 times the EU average? I'll need to see numbers if that's your argument. A lot of the UK's power in Europe is derived from our EU membership. If we leave Europe then we lose a lot of that influence. a) many of those veto powers are probably not going to exist much longer b) 7 of the UK's top 8 export partners are EU members c) the UK has a multi-billion pound trade deficit Europe wouldn't lose an Export customer, but trade would cost more and that will hurt us more than it will hurt the EU. Very true, but why would we want to lose any of that power by going it alone?
Sure it is, but I don't think that over reach is anywhere near bad enough to outweigh the benefits in trade, defence and convenience that we currently reap.
What are the benefits in defence? Seriously who is coming to get us now? Is it another wee man in a cave? I think we should be able to handle wee men living in caves on our own.
One of the reasons the EU exists was to integrate European countries together in order to make it virtually impossible for there to be another major war in Europe. We've just gotten through 65 years of peace within the EU and it is still absolutely inconceivable that there will be another war between two major European powers. Has there been a period of European peace that long in the last 1000 years? That's one of the biggest intangible benefits of the EU.
Well that depends on how you define peace. Greece is experiencing a lot of civil unrest right now. Which is a direct result of austerity measures brought in to deal with Greece's financial problems. Which were in part caused by the fact Greece has no control over it's own money supply. Just like all other Eurozone countries. Greece can't devalue unless the European central banks devalues the Euro for everybody. There doesn't really seem to be any end in sight to that civil unrest. Even worse is the state of Italian finances. If Italy falls into the same boat as Greece we're all in trouble. Lets just hope the bailout fund is sufficient. In the end up it was about half of what the IMF were recommending. If Greece or Italy fail there will be a chain reaction in the money markets which will see the Eurozone implode. I'm betting the spirit of cooperation will be tested to breaking point if that happens. I'm also sceptical the EU is the reason for 65 years of peace in Europe. After world war 2 most countries were bankrupt or near bankrupt. There's simply no political or social appetite for war in Europe any longer.
It's true that being part of the Euro is restricting Greece's options (which is why I'm not advocating for the UK to join), but you also have to remember that currency devaluation is not a silver bullet and it comes with major risks of its own. As for the civil unrest being compared to war - you either need to rethink that or go read a history book. The EU safeguards European security in a way that can't be underestimated. As long at the EU exists in its current form, we never need worry about petty political wars between Germany and France or France and Britain, and standing together, we need not worry about Russia taking a trip into Latvia or Estonia. I think the extension to the EFSF has been made with Italy in mind. I don't think we need to worry about either nation failing (so long as they are willing to tidy their rooms), but even if they do fail, the fallout will probably be less severe that it would be if they were independent, as the big Eurozone nations will be able to cushion the fallout to a greater or lesser degree. I wont lie, I'm relieved that we are not one of those nations, but France and Germany can probably take the hit between them if need be. Yeah, they said the exact same thing in 1918. War to end all wars, anyone? The EU makes it impractical to wage war against one another. If we went to war with France tomorrow, then win or lose, we're screwed. That's the kind of maths politicians understand. Just because there's no appetite today, doesn't mean in 50 years time there wont be, but if the EU still stands, then appetite wont be enough.
The Eurozone is part of the reason for this call on a referendum though. We're not part of the Eurozone. Which means Eurozone nations aren't interested in listening to us telling them what to do. What we have emerging is a two tear EU with the Eurozone nations effectively becoming a super block dominated by France and Germany with in a wanna be super state. The longer the European union exists the further it descends into farce. The answer to solving the problems of that farce is complete fiscal and political union or separation with a free trade treaty.
We have more say now, that we will if we leave. I'd be interested to see what the next step is. I wouldn't be surprised if the EU looks to better integrate those two tiers. The devil will be in the details.
Quote “I am not a world renowned economist, but I understand enough to recognise the complexity of the global economy. What do you know about common external tarrifs, custom unions and countervailing duties? I'll wait while you consult a dictionary... And you think Greece would be better off outside of the EU? You really are a lunatic. You realise that the Greek crisis was caused by the Greek government sidestepping the EU's debt and deficit regulations? Oh of course not, because if you knew the facts then it would be harder to make these crazy assertions.” Well it was Goldman Sachs which helped the Greeks get into the Euro I think they should be prosecuted, . As to the EU’s debt and defecit regulations they are regularly broken by the member states 1) As the CEP points out, the use of Article 122 in this way involves a heroic legal interpretation - particularly as the European Council has previously said that Article 122 must be compatible with the “no bail-out clause” in the EU treaties. The fact that Article 122 involves Qualified Majority Voting, rather than unanimity, makes it even more outrageous Source http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/is-eurozone-bailout-legal.html Quote Their deficit would probably have been a lot worse had they been outside of the EU and had they been outside of the EU, there would have been no one there to prop them up when the house of cards collapsed No it wouldn’t be , because they could devalue their currencey Quote “There is no country in the union who is benefiting more from EU membership than Greece and no country would have more to lose than Greece by leaving the EU. “ But they are not benefiting, we may yet see the Generals take over once more and Greece is not alone. Italy ,Spain, Portugal and Ireland will all follow. The tipping point for a country is when their bond reach 6%, that is considered unsustainable But look at this Italy’s 10-year yield jumped 14 basis points this week to 6.03 percent, while that on similar-maturity Spanish paper was three basis points higher at 5.51 percent. The Italian two-year note yield rose yesterday by as much as 33 basis points, the most since Sept. 12. Source http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...eu-debt-plan-optimism-italian-bonds-drop.html The Euro is proving an abject failure
Again currency devaluation is not something you do on a whim. It's a sledgehammer that can have dire consequences. You think that there's going to be a military coup...in Ireland? Does Cloud Cuckoo land require a visa for entry? Or did they sign up to Schengen?
Are you forgetting the Troubles in Northern Ireland? You don't think that Ireland is capable of armed revolt?
You're messing with me, right? I mean, you're not even trying to hide your trolling any more, are you?
Quote "You're messing with me, right? I mean, you're not even trying to hide your trolling any more, are you? " your the one being facetious, so you should expect comments like that, and just because you don't have a reply doesn't mean that I am a troll, and I can seriously see the Irish getting fed up with the Troika, Christine Lagarde said that she applauded the Irish because they were willing to miss meals for the Austerity measures, now how long will that last? and people seem to be forgetting the violent protests in Greece, [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r6ZUafNEVY"]Video: Clashes break out in Athens on 2nd day of mass protests - YouTube[/ame] Everybody knows that the latest agreement was a bandaid and that Greece will be back for more money in a couple of months, and will most likely leave the Euro here is a former IMF whalla, and professor of economics http://www.bloomberg.com/video/79111882/ he thinks so to
In the end up we'll all be sucked into the Euro or forced out of the EU. Given that the Euro has massive issues. I really don't want to be sucked in. Fact of the matter is the Eurozone countries have been warned since it's inception the currency was doomed to failure unless Europe became a proper federal political union with everybody all the way in 100%. That is in fact what is going to slowly unfold over the next 5 years or so. The Eurozone countries are going to increasingly move closer and closer to full political union and any body that's left will have to choose to join or leave the EU.
If it comes to that, we [the people] will need to make a big decision - the kind that justifies a referendum.
Well China has refused to fund the €1 trillion Euro bail out fund. And none of the existing Euro nations are willing to put any more cash into the pot. Which means we now have an unfunded rescue plan.
Oh God. The Greeks have screwed us all. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15533940 We're about to get a hard lesson in what happens when you let the common man make important decisions about things they don't understand. I suspect we might see some new legislation being passed through the European parliament in the next month - the 'Kick Greece out of the Eurozone Act 2011'
