Really interesting Video comparing Push Hands judging in America and China

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by aaradia, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If punch and kick are not involved, it should be called "wrestling". I assume the modern term can be "grappling".
  2. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Back to what again?Definitions?

    Did I not say "I guess one can refer to any non-cooperative multi person practice as "sparring"?

    I find it amusing that only in the west were ph type things ever referred to as sparring when I was.... younger. And those were the people saying that's all the "sparring" there was in "internal" systems.

    Sorry, there are all these TC clips out there but few and far between of any kind of,shall we say,more violent freestyle practices.Guess I just get disappointed whenever I see a label that says "Sparring", and it's some form of ph. Interesting that none of the fighting TC groups I knew of years ago considered ph sparring,whether they were in New York,Hong Kong,California,or SE Asia.Of course,that was before the ph tourneys,which was also before people decided,due to those,that TC is somehow a wrestling system.

    If it is,it's a pretty lame wrestling system.Any beginning high school wrestler has a better toolkit at his disposal.

    As for your comment that many systems fight w/a limited rule set,I'm cognizant of this.Technically,thumb wrestling is a "fighting" competition.

    My problem is I didn't really see a whole lot of either,tho'.

    If I put my hands on you and try to catch your balance is it wrestling just because I'm touching you? I mean,isn't there a bit more to wrestling,any kind of wrestling,than that?

    I've downed a lot of people via balance attacks and issuing.Interesting that I guess that means in the modern (post late 1980s) TC perception I can consider myself a wrestler now.Even tho' I sure ain't.Don't think I'll be so silly as to call myself one.Don't think you would,either,Mr. W.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    P.S.-I don't know why things are coming out misspelled in my posts.Even after I correct them via edit.

    The ch'i of MAP must be disturbed.:eek:
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Every time that I played PH with my Taiji opponent, the moment that I drag their arm and run in circle, it all soon turned into wrestling. In dynamic PH, you are allowed to move your feet. By using Taiji Lu, you are allowed to pull your opponent's arm. So to drag your opponent's arm and move in circle is perfect legal under the dynamic PH rull set.


    IMO, PH is a subset of wrestling. May be more on the "grip fight" level. Whether you want to cross that line or not will be up to you.

    If we compare PH with wrestling, the missing elements are:

    1. clinch creation - such as neck control (head lock, collar hold, head stirring), shoulder control (under hook, over hook), arm control, waist control, leg control, ...
    2. leg skills - such as sweep, sickle, cut, hook, break, block, spring, twist, lift, scoop, bite, ...
    3. footwork - such as cover step, stealing step, wheeling step, hopping step, ...
    4. ...
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  5. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I assume that you are referring to fixed-step PH here, because moving step PH incorporates a number of those things. (Obviously there isn't one single 'pattern' of moving-step PH any more than there is one single 'pattern' of fixed-step. There are many different ones.)
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This clip has something more than just "push".

  7. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Push hands competitions, eastern vs western

    Found these two video's on youtube the other day which compare how taiji push hands competitions are very different in the west in comparison to China and Taiwan. I've never myself been to a push hands event here in the UK but would in the future be interested in competing (if my sifu thinks I'm ready for it!)
    Does this video give a fair representation of western competition or is this as I suspect just a specific groups own competition rule set and not indicative of most other push hands competitions in the west?

    [ame=""]Pushing The Issue (Part 1): Tai Chi Push Hands Competitions - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Pushing The Issue (Part 2): Tai Chi Push Hands Competitions - YouTube[/ame]
  8. ned

    ned Valued Member

    Hey EmptyHandguy , did reading this thread give you any further insight to your question ? I think it illustrates the differences in opinions on the subject pretty well.

    If you want to compete I should go for it . If you are'nt already , you should be regularly practicing your push hands under similar conditions to the ruleset of the category you choose to enter otherwise it can be a humbling experience.

    On the related topic of good examples of ph clips as discussed in other threads
    in the IMA/TC forums of late , I found some interesting stuff from Chen Zhongua's practicalmethod channel , such as these highlights from a competition at his training camp at Daqinshan in Shandong province.
    ( music's a bit OTT ! )

    [ame=""]2014 DaQingShan Push Hand Competition - YouTube[/ame]
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I hate the musak that so often accompanies ICMA. This 1 could be a North Korean propaganda hit to celebrate the Kim dynasty.
  10. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Its certainly given me some food for thought, and a bit of reassurance over UK/european push hands comps being closer to eastern style. I don't do nearly enough push hands training yet and am a relative beginner with taji anyway, though I am very interested in competing it will be a while off yet before I'm anywhere near competent to do so without being in that "humbling experience" you speak of!
  11. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Thanks for sharing the video Ned, it certainly shows a contrast between the US style of push hands comps and those in the east! I would think the US judges would be having heart attacks if that was the level of energy being used over there! Time to put in some serious practice time me thinks!
  12. zzj

    zzj Valued Member

    Just a quick quip YouknowWho.

    This was what I meant when I mentioned that the push hands I train in was criticized by some as being too much like wrestling,....

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