Reality in training

I would like to get some input on this topic. I will give my opinion, you give yours. All Martial arts have something to benefit off of. The only problem is you have to do alot of research to find out what is real and what isn't. There was a period of peace in Japan for close to 300 years. This is historical fact. ALot of Samurai and Ninja were not needed during this time. That is why alot of the old Ryu died out. The only reason some of them lived is because someone realized even during times of peace, War is just around the corner. That is the reality. I remember training for years and thinking I could do flying sidekicks at people. The reality is it was used to knock men off horses, or jump into a crowd of fighting warriors. Many people today fight and try and do it. The person fighting you should have enough skill to drop your butt. It takes you from the ground to leap then extend you leg and foot to kick the guy in the chest, or the head? Why should I just stand there. Dump him! He/She will never, ever do it again. I have even seen people try and fight in horse stance to get knocked on their butt. In ancient days maybe you could fight this way,why? Cause they wore armour. People don't move that slow today. Even within my own system, I see people do what we call Ichimonji no Kamae. The persons hand is usually out as well. Sometimes at the heart, sometimes at the eyes, depending on the ryu. In reality, would you do this? I hope not. The best element you have is surprise. Would I hit someone first? You bet! Especially if I know that there was no other way. It is a feeling you get. When responding to this be realistic. If you have trained in Martial Arts for only a short period of time, give an opinion. It is O.K. to hear from you. Just don't try and be an expert because we have angered you or your teacher or your favorite Martial arts movie star. Lets hear what you have to say. All the facts I have stated are not all thats to them. I just don't have time to write a thesis paper. It is a start. Have fun! Country Ninja,
Tracy Crocker

 

Tracy,
If I understand the thread correctly you are talking about being realistic in what you train? If so here's my .02

To me, reality in training is essential if you intend to use that training to survive. You cannot fight without first knowing what a fight is, and learning that the wonderful Mr Murphy will make every attempt to aid your opponent and things go wrong with your techniques. Reality based training allows you to learn to flow, adapt, and alter circumstances to enable you to survive, without it....... well, in my opinion you will end up being the one in the back of an ambulance.

Rob

 

Reality in training is complex...

Some people only think reality in training comes with wearing tons of gear yelling at each other to imitate the intimidation one might experience during a self defense scenario and striking each other with full force. I guess sometimes that MIGHT have it's place, but I think reality in training starts with the right mindset and perception.

For instance, have you made your mind up to do whatever it takes to survive. Even if it means "demeaning" your self or bruising your ego and running away? Taking away the "I can't" attitude and adopting an "I will" perspective, is a start.

Tracy, you know Michelle , my wife. A few weeks ago when Thom came up and we were training in NC with the idea of "closing the gap" and "stressing" the Uke with a flurry of punches and strikes to the upper body, I truly was shocked when Michelle, who was feeling a bit intimidated and a tad overwhelmed, reached out with a strike to my throat to stop the attack. It was something so small, but I was so impressed that she has retained the idea to "stay simple". She struck out and immediately slowed down/stopped the attack to the point that I was actually stunned.

Michelle has absolutely no prior experience and has taken to heart the concepts you have presented to us and that we practice at home.

Another perspective of "Reality In Training" involves things like a freind or realitive that is out of hand but not dangerous. You don't want to rip their eye out, or punch them in the face or groin, but you DO want them to STOP their behavior at that moment. What do you do then? This art (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu aka "Ninjutsu") gives us the physical and mental tools to work with, so that we can diffuse the situation. I think those kind of situations are more "real" and common than a typical "mugging". The guy that steps in front of you in line at the theater or the loud mouth at the club may make you "feel" like you should kick some a** , but that response is an emotional one and may not be warranted. Repercussions may exist that you are not immediately aware of. Other times physical intervention MAY be the best response. That response may NOT be stepping up to them and sticking your chest out and challenging the guys intelligence, manners and apparent premature hair loss.

One last thought. Another fantastic thing about this art is the ability to present "hidden" techniques. The "oh, you dropped something" to the bully as he bends foward into your uplifting knee. Or the "please don't hurt me" while raising you hands, as he charges his chest/throat into your elbow, is just priceless. The witnesses can only comment about how you were trying to not get hit when the attacker suddenly hit the ground clutching his chest....

Some more random thoughts I felt compelled to share.
We need to pickup the passion in this forum! LOL

Please feel free to talk amongst yourselves, I'm feeling a bit verklempt...

 

Ichimonji

I happen to think this is an excellent stance for recieving as it can hide a lot of attacks - the LEGS are often not picked up as the focus is on the hands!!!!!!!

True you dont want to walk around like it but it is a hell of a lot better than most stances!!!!

I like to use it to crate some room to work in and why do so manu jujitsu MMA fighters use it and it work???

The reality bit I agree but this stance has been used in combat and it worked so dont knock it unless you have had to use it - there are crap things in Ninjutsu ie little or no sparing and only defending against a fudoken or a hook!

IT needs more scope and sparing to perfect skills under pressure. Its a good art though!

SONSHU

 

I may not practice ninjutsu anymore.

But I don't see anything wrong with the stances. Ju-monji is a pretty effective stance and in fact, very similar to the one used in Jun Fan JKD.

The only thing I did'nt like about ninjutsu was the lack of fullcontact, if ANY, sparring done, since majority of training is done with two-man kata.

But then again, not everyone is up for, or even should be for, fullcontact sparring. In fact it just seems to discourage certain types of ppl from training.

my 2 cents.

 

my 2 cents.. those that are fixating on stances (ichimonji, jumonji, etc) should remember that they are not fixed positions, but fluid ideas or concepts. You won't stand in one position during a fight. You move, if you stop, you get hurt or worse. When you train, train with this idea in mind. Also, if you train with the right attitude and try not to have an attitude if you are ever in a confrontation, you will find that yourtraining has paid off far better that you ever expected. Reality in training? The only way to get true reality would be for me to come at you with a knife and try to cut you. Since we don't want that. We train with the intent. If your partner does not train with full intent, and neither do you, then you both are wasting time. Personally, I'm glad there is no full contact sparring. The classes I attend are pretty intense as it is, and my body isn't as young. Not to say we don't get hit, we do. Sometimes intentionally, so that we know what it feels like and your partner knows what it is like to hit someone. Having been in several altercations, each with a different final outcome(police taking control, hospitalization for the other guy, talking the aggressor down, stopping the fight just before someone gets seriously injured) I can vouch for the effectiveness of my training in a "real" situation. That's "reality training" enough for me.

 

the trap that most people fall into with training for real is they don't think about the places that they are going to have to use there skills for real... on a hole most places are safe these days to walk about so you got to look at the places that you will be put to the test in most cases these are places with lots of people drink and drugs like bars and night clubs this has to be a part of your trainning and you have to think of the dangers and wepons on hand and also take into acount you only have a max two feet to fight in a busy bar so unlucky high kicking is out


on your your stance the thing is most old master trained full time they had five and six hours a day to work on these stances they wanted to fight that low it draws you into them they where very good at it (i have seen this in action)but most people don't have the time to put that sort of work in thats why you find the stances weak or not very apply able find a middle point and train it and get good in it after all the stance is the root of you all your fighting skill

 

Full contact with pads, head guards, gloves etc!? A useful learning tool of course, but use of protective clothing has just made it unrealistic

Other things as important are training for the realistic fight, as Tracy said we’re not in ancient Asian lands fighting warriors.

And having a good imagination. ie Can you imagine your in a bad situation being attacked by lunatic as your training partner steps in with a gentle punch. And also run through different scenarios of what could happen in your mind and how you would deal with it. Apparently its one of Frank Shamrocks training techniques to run through in his mind all the possible events of a fight.

 

Realistic training in my opinion involves sparring and intent. Sparring teaches the reflexes, how to put all your moves together(I'm not talking about point sparring, which has it's place)

An important aspect is the INTENT. When practicing new technique I punch in lightly until the new technique is learned...then we try to hit each other. If he gets hit or I do then who's fault is that for not blocking?

Just my opinion
BTW, how do you guys spar(with realism in mind)
As for me, I have a brother in MA. He has to buy his gear still but when he does we plan on sparring ALOT. We will start out kickboxing rules and gradually rip away the rules, ie. allowing for more target areas and grappling to make our training realistic.

 

My opinion ... if you are trying to make your sparring / training 'real' then you should NOT be dropping into any sort of rigid stance !! If you go into a horse stance in a 'live' situation against somebody who knows how to fight, then you might as well wear a T-shirt that says 'I do not know any grappling ... please ground and pound me !'
I feel that stances take away any mobility - a natural boxing 'lead' enables you to move freely for any stand-up fighting, whilst still being able to sprawl, clinch or take-down.

Jay

 

I actually feel that stances improve your mobility. Moving between stances makes you movements practised, flow and you end in a balanced position from where you can continue to fight.

That boxing lead actually limits most of your movements and possible attacks. You assume a left lead boxing stance (from what i've seen, boxers hunch and place alot of weight on the front foot.) Now from here you can move forward and left with the left foot leading, backwards and right with the right foot leading.
With the wieght forward you can't kick off the front leg quickly and the back leg is hard to bring around. The lead hand is awkward to move in a hooking motion and the straights end up being crosses (very bad punches). The back hand is hard to move forwards quickly although it moves in a straight line.

I like the square, front on stance with wieght evenly dispersed with one foot about 5cm in front of the other. From here you can move in any direction easily and quickly. All limbs can move freely and its possible to move into the strikes to create more power.

After spending tonight at training with a black belt shwoing how fluidly he moves between stances I can see many more flaws in the boxing/kickboxing stances with thier limited movement and attack potential.

I move from this "normal stance" like I stand all day, to somewhere I can attack from and then move again. There is no stance you be in that you can't move from - the stance merely limits the options open to you.

Don't knock the horse stance - its a very stable stance that delivers tremndous power when you slide into it.

Brief thoughts on reality training.

First think on possible situations - someone grabs me, pushes me, attacks me, etc.
Real situations will not be like sparring - if your lucky you will get a warning, if not smacked in the back of the head.

Now in any of these situations your sub-concious reflexes will be what you will allow you to use your techniques.
A favourite example the Shihan of our head dojo is a sumo wrestler. "What would you do if a 6 and a half foot Sumo attacked you?" Usually in the front strangulation situation. Well you look at his physiology and realise his eyes are still vulnerable.

The other part IS the intent of your attacker. He should be trying to choke you or kick you or smack your face. BUT only after your reaction has been implanted to do this until then you increase the realism of the attack.

With the sparring you should also make it a realistic attack. Some drunk meat-head comes up to you and starts swinging - you will need to counter. With him really trying to hit you. This will not be like sparring where your attacker is trying not to be hit but will be trying to hurt you or not expecting a retaliation.

There are certain aspects you can't train "realistically" but I'm not sure you would. That throw you just did "should" be done with intent to kill but would you really want to kill your attacker. You should just be aware that it IS dangerous and it can be changed to be fatal but can also be done less lethaly.
Would you really slam that lock on? Or would you slowly increase the pressure to give them a chance to calm down and go away?

You are talking about REALISTIC training not dangerous or violent training - thats what Muay Thai is about (j/king, so don't get fired up ).

So in summation - train slowly at first to get the feel and concepts down then increase the speed, intensity and realism. This way no-one gets hurt you become good at instinctive, less lethal techniques.

 

So, let me get this straight ... a boxing (or Thai if you prefer) 'lead' limits your mobility, but a horse stance doesn't ?? In any of the early UFC's or other NHB fights (as near as you get to 'real' fighting) did you ever see anyone using a stance - horse or otherwise ? Yeah I think most probably there were a few, and guess what ... they got well and truely pounded !
When I talk about sparring - I'm not referring to points or one for one 'sparring'
No matter what is said - I would never be convinced that rigid stances have any use in a real altercation ... no way - uh uh - say it to the hand coz the face aint listenin'

 

I train various stances, and also the Thai/boxing footwork as part of Kung Fu. Theres lots of different stances, not all of which low like you imply. Because somebody trains in various stances doesn’t necessarily mean there footwork will be the same. Some are used as a base for different types of attack. Boxing stance is one I use, but I’m aware of its limits against a kicker.

I don’t like rigid stances either, or teaching people to fight from one position. I’d rather fight from a higher position having lighter footwork. I’m not a great believer in practicing a lot of low stances, but I can see there uses as transitional moves and also when sprawling and grappling. I’m sure you go into a strong low stance yourself when going into grappling positions?

 

Thai boxers use the stance and deal with kicks (and elbows, punches, etc) very well.
Any grappling / clinch footwork is done because it is effective in either resisting or aiding a takedown, etc - not because it was once used in fuedal japan against a man on horse-back

Jay

 

I agree Jay, I prefer the Thai style stances. There only weakness is grappling, when I prefer the lower stances for the stronger base and sprawling. You've got to admit MT has never been associted with strong grappling skills! From what I've seen in BJJ and UFC, the Gracie guys use a stance closer to the Kung Fu than the kickboxing I've trained in. Which is all fine if you have a few stances to work from, I think this is the most important thing.

A lot of traditional martial artists teach you should always punch while having both feet firmly planted on the ground, I think this is all part of the strong stance belief, What are your thoughts on this?

 

Try punching with one foot in the air. You will lose at least half your power due to the fact you will move against the force of the punch.
You need to be solidly based in order to hit hard. I don't mean sit in horse stance and wait for the kick to hit oyu in the head, I mean move around but when you hit you should be firmly planted and be able to stay balanced while striking.

The boxing stance I was talking about was the one where you have your weight over your front foot and you back heel up and are turned slightly side on.

The MT stance doesn't allow for effective blocking of kicks or strikes - they just take the kick on the leg or the strike on the arms (gross generalisation but hold true for most practitioners).
They "deal" with those kicks and elbows by not feeling the pain they are experiencing and conditioning thier shins. It is NOT a smart way to block a kick, just the only way they can from the stance.

I like the cat stance form of MT but not to start from or be in for any amount of time. I move to it quickly and change my feet quickly - it is just an stance to counter from if you are having to retreat. Advancing from it is remarkably slow unless you change it as you move or are good at your stable movements.
Also my cat stance is alot lower than the MT's with my weight always changind its position on my legs.

The power of your strike also comes from the movements into it - if you stand ther and punch it will be very weak but if you use your momentum to increase your power then you can deal some serious damage.

 

I prefer to punch with both feet off the ground while doing a hand-stand ... Capoera stylee
Only jokin' - both feet on the ground putting your body-weight behind the punch (move the hips) Pivot on the front foot for hooks (crushing peanuts) and let the rear foot rotate on the ball of the foot when doing a cross.

Jay

 

Ideally you would have both feet firmly planted on the ground, but you might be in some strange postures during fighting, and I believe its possible to generate reasonable punching power from just about any foot position even minimal ground contact.

The Capoera method sounds good Jay!

 

I prefer to have my wieght on the balls of my feet but still have my heels down - to easy to be pulled over with your heels up.

With the minimal contact thing I don't mean plant then begin the strike you'd move into the strike so if you take a big stomping step as your foot stomps your punch lands.
Also if you "slide" into the stance you will strike from your strike lands as you foot stops moving and "grips" the floor.
Using this technique you minimise your potential to fall over during the strike and it appears you aren't actually using the stance as you are only planted and stable for the time you need to land the strike and move again.

 

Hi all

This is my view of reality training, So If I simplify things or say something that you already know or have heard bear with me.

You start training Beginners with slow movements and wide stances so that it builds strength and confidence. As you gain in skill the stance and movement become more fluid and relaxed but you retain the power and strength generated by the wide stance and big movements. You move in and out of the stances as you need them.
This may seen an obvious point but many people over look it and keep the rigid wide stances of the beginner when very skilled.

Take Ichimonji If you dropped into the beginners stance at the start of a real fight you might walk away as the attacker might be in stiches laughting on the floor or may beat you to a pulp.

If on the other hand you take a small step back, drop your weight slightly & raise your arms and hands into ichimonji but keep your hands closer to your body but still apart with the palms forward, you look like you have stepped back in fear and that you are trying to ward of his possible attacks.
And that is the point, you are stood in a very relaxed Ichimonji ready to move into any of the other stances as needed. But to the attacker and onlookers you have backed up in fear.
At this point you maybe able to talk your way out of it but if everything goes pear shaped you are ready to react.

The first Bit of advice all of my different instructors have given me is.
"No matter how good you are or think you are, walk away or try and talk your way out of it, and only use what you know when you have no option but to use it."
This does not mean you do not attack first as sometimes this is the only way to avoid greater damage to yourself and friends. But if you bear this in mind at least when you do use what you know you will know it was as a last resort and you did the right thing.

The other side to reality training as mentioned in the other posts is you are very rarely attacked in a dojo setting in real life. Try practicing in normal clothes and outside and in corridors. You will quickly find not all traditional stances are possible as taught in the dojo and it can be a lot harder to keep your balance on uneven flag stones, grass & stairs etc especially after it has rained, snowed or been icy. I quite often trained outside at one of my instructors as his back garden had 2 levels a small paved uneven upper level with a short flight of steps leading down to the grassed area. A very good training environment or we would put chairs on the mats in the dojo or train next to the wall with multiple attackers just trying to bear hug or grab and punch to get a feel for using furniture and obstacles and the room against an attacker and how it can help or hamper your own efforts.

Home this helps rather than confuses
Solane