I'm happy to see this continuing in a constructive direction, as it shows a level of maturity and reasoning that isn't present on a lot of message boards. In answer to the scenario given, one must realize that a large part of what we call "RBSD" involves recognizing potential situations before they occur. While I have only limited experience with this systems of training, my own experience (in addition to comparing the experiences of others) is that the most crippling factor is a lack of awareness. We CAN play the chess game where one party creates a scenario, and the other must apply their methodology to overcome that scenario. However, the answer to that is, I think, already contained in the interesting moniker: "reality based self defense". The one common point of all of these systems as I understand them is that they stress, very heavily, the relative frailness of the human being, and one's (again, relative) inability to decisively control the situation. You may ask, "How can these people play the martial game?" That's an extremely valid question, and the answer, to my knowledge, is that they do their best NOT to play the martial game. These are tools for survival, not martial conquest. I have no doubt that the Asian martial arts can lead to depths of skill that these methods do not. However, to reach the incredible goal of these systems requires a singular dedication and focus, taking many years to reach the true zenith of their ability. For a soldier, professional fighter, or anyone whose life is based directly on their martial ability, this is fine. Also fine for those with extremely high ambitions and are willing to make the sacrifices to meet them. However... what percentage of the population does this group represent? Wouldn't there be a more pragmatic way to convey this advantage to the common man or woman, without the desire to completely change the focus of their life? Furthermore, what is it about the common ne'er-do-well that allows him to take advantage of even trained martial artists, many of whom would easily dismantle him in the dojo, gym or ring? It is, as the Animal makes a show of stating, that they control the factors of the confrontation and "stack the deck", so to speak. Teach Joe Sixpack to recognize this and avoid it. Make him familiar with the most common methods of attack, which are unlikely to change... simply because they work. If he can avert the situation before it happens, then everything is well. If he can't, then knowing the rudiments of armed/unarmed combat will serve him well enough that he might hopefully survive. Basically, the idea behind this method is (provided I understand it as well as I think I do) to give the ordinary, non-fighting human being the same set of skills as the afore-mentioned thug, and to impress upon them the necessity of survival by means of repeatedly demonstrating just how easily it is to get hurt. If a person is psychologically prepared and ready to defend themselves and their loved ones, then the vast majority of the attacker's upper hand has just disappeared.
I think that last post of yours came through while I was working on mine. I shall then take my wordiness elsewhere, righting literary wrongs and conceptual evils.
Oy... once more into the breach... Matt's Note: I drafted this before I saw your later posts EarthElement. Thought it was worth keeping up there. Glad you can see our position. It is a good debate. Left out a bit there: Putting it bluntly, he ain't going to give you a chance to use all your uber-bad ass street fighting moves. When he drops this bomb on your head, it's going to be his timing, not yours. Because getting the first shot off is a major component of who wins the streets. If you don't know what these things look like being developed, then they are going to nail you before you have a chance to bring out your ultimate streetfighting ****. Check out that part in bold. A major part of RBSD training is observation skills. learning to read body language and "pre contact cues" (Tony Blauer terminology). That should also be taking part in typically Martial Arts training, but I've only seen a handful of schools that begin to discuss this stuff. He's not negating training, simply that if you don't know what to look for you're in trouble. In this case it's learning about how not to be sucker punched (and to be prepared to sucker punch first). Either way there are a couple things to address: 1. Where did these guys come from. I mean they didn't appear out of thin air. How did they approach me? Because my defense starts as soon as they enter my field of vision with intent to approach. And if they came out of a dark alley, I need to ask what was I doing so close to it. Next... What's my environment? Busy street? Empty? Open stores near by? I need to know that as well because, quite frankly, I'd be aware of it. Next... Where are their hands? In pockets or out of them? Next... Describe their body language. Where are their eyes? Next... Describe their coats to me. Next... What's their relative position to me? And what about my girl? Next... What clothes am I wearing? What shoes are my GF wearing? The quick answer in both cases is that I'd get my hands into a non violent position and immediately state in a calm voice that I don't want any trouble. I'd also make myself look a little smaller. In both cases I'm probably handing over my wallet as there are too many open variables in your description. However, if I see any form of aggressive movement (or pre contact cue) I'll be forced to escalate, then: 1. I would engage a pattern interrupt distraction (ask a question, divert attention) 2. Sucker punch through them as much as I could. 3. Get my girlfriend running and continue to run past them with her. But my immediate defense would be to cross the street as soon as I relaized that they have intent towards me. But of course, like most martial artists, your skipping the pre encounter rituals and moving straight to the confrontation. - Matt
Ok for the sake of testing your RBSD, Most of your questions i alredy answered, and its not a busy street, only you and them, and they had not exactly approched you but they were walking in front of you, and slowed down so as you would get close to them, and then turn around and ask you for your wallet when you were only 3 feet away. and they are blocking your path in front of you. Say your both wearing tennis shoes. and your holding hands with your girl, while 1 oftheir eyes are fixed or yours and anothers on your arms.
Ok... The hands outside of coats make things a heck of a lot easier. Provided both of them are infront of us, then things are a bit better. I'd probably still hand over the wallet, since I don't want to play the numbers game. However, assuming that my date was not wearing high heels (her mobility, or lack there of, needs to be factored into the response), I may vary the response a little bit. Either way I'm not making eye contact with either of them. Hands are immediately up in front of me in a non violent posture, palms forward, relaxed, moving in a slight (soothing) up and down motion. I've also taken the smallest of steps back with one foot. This posture will in no way look martial. I'm talking. All the while I'm watching them. I'm watching for a look off. I'm listening to see if either of them stop talking. I'm watching their relative hand positions. If one makes any quick motion inside their jacket. If they encroach any closer (which if anything I want from a self defense perspective). Should these happen I'm again going to throw out a quick question and sucker punch/SPEAR them (immediately engaging eye rakes, palm strikes to the face, elbows and knees) with the intent of essentially running both of them over and head to the nearest open store with my GF. Oh and I'm making a butt load of noise while I'm doing it to attract as much attention as possible. But, as long as they're good muggers, I'll be keeping one hand up (still non violent) and my eyes on them at all times. And I'll be handing over my wallet. Now if they say that we need to go somewhere I say no and get prepared to go into sucker punch mode. NEVER EVER GO ANYWHERE UNDER DURESS. You chances of survial PLUMMET! - Matt
Ok while your taking the time to spear one of them the other one pulls out a 3 inch and stabs you. Congratulations, you got stabed!!!!!!!!:-D
Ok. First of all I'd notice something was up as they slowed their pace for us to catch up. Quite frankly, I know that there's no way they could do that without setting off my spidey sense. It may sound dumb but that's pretty obvious. I'm going to go into a defensive mode at that point and not leave it until we're way past those guys (even if they don't do anything). So while I'm in this mode I'm going to be scanning my environment to find the clearest path, look for safe places, other assailants and environmental weapons. What I'm not going to do is deny to myself that something might be able to go down. As far as I'm concerned the fight is beginning. I'll also drop my girls hand at this point. If they began doing that I'd do one of two things: 1. Suggest to my girl friend that we cross the street. If she asks why I'll say that those guys are giving me a bad vibe. 2. As we begin to get closer actively verbally confront the guys at a greater distance. Say loudly "are you two following us?" (This is unlikely for me based on my personality... but it is something that I've been training to do). The reason 2 works is that muggers as a whole don't like the idea of getting caught or getting hurt. And so if the prey doesn't appear to be vulnerable or takes the emotional or psychological initative away, the attack may stop there. And if not, and they are going to go through with it, I've created distance that will allow more options. Ok after that see my previous e-mail. - Matt
Nope. Doesn't work that way. Unless he has knife in hand, I'm going to move faster than he can most likely draw and engage. Especially if I take immediate initiative. So I can cross a three foot gap with an explosive charge far faster than either of them can react to it. Also, neither of them are expecting me to do so. So that's going to make it more difficult to draw. And the spear that I'm talking about isn't a wrestling spear but rather an explosive attack to the clavical and center of mass of the attacker. It's a favorite technique of Blauer tactical systems. I should have explained that better. And quite frankly, I'm not overly concerned about a 3 inch blade. Why? a. I'm wearing clothing. If they're wearing a coat, so am I. That's going to afford some protection. B. I'm charging into them and knocking them back. That means I've removed a lot of the power base for the stab. C. With an adrenal dump I'm not going to feel that stab for a little while. Since all three inches will more than likely not enter my body (See points A&B), and even if it does there not too much chance of hitting a major organ, I can put them down and continue to run through them (this is a last resort maneuver in filipino knife defense). As soon as we've cleared them (and I'm confident that I can create that space), we keep running and making a hell of a lot of noise. It's going to take them time to recover and with the gap create and their need to turn around, we'll easily have 10 yards on them before they can really start to run. Which means unless they are sprinters, we're in good shape. Now if the knife was already out, then the scenario changes. - Matt btw. The average attacker in this situation would have the knife out. If they don't have the knife out, and they're planning on using one, then it's going to be something with more stopping power than a 3 inch blade.
Ok fine, i guess this guy really covered all of the aspects pretty well, however if you were to charge, you would only be able to charge one of them, which means this gives the other one time to react.
Possibly. However, assuming that they're blocking the sidewalk that means they are essentially shoulder to shoulder. And that means, because I've stolen the initative (and hopefully distracted them first) that I've done a bit of an overload job on them. Essentially I've triggered adrenal dumps in both people. I'm going to assume that my attack momentarily dazed the first one (thanks to my martial training and conditioning, I know I can generate enough power to do that). So now the second attacker (who we're assuming has the knife) needs to go through the following mental process: WHAT? He's attacking! Oh Crap! I need to get my knife, target and deploy (fine motor skills during an adrenal dump) <- aka why concealed weapons are bad for self defense I've turned approximately 90 degrees and started to lay into him at close range (where my arts particularly excel) by the time he's at the "Oh". And I'm aggressively diving him backwards, overloading him with a "blender" of elbows, palms and hand rakes with intent to stun and if possible punish (by punish I mean do what ever it takes to get us home in one peice... frankly I am emotionally prepared to deal with the consiquences and if my GF is with me the law is actually on my side). I'm also attempting to create an opening that we can run through. After a moment I transfer back to attacker 1 and do everything I can to create that gap. During all of this until we begin to run I'm watching both attackers as best I can. My intent is not to enter into a protracted fight. Rather we're in stun and run mode. - Matt
Honestly, prior to my exposure to RBSD I didn't think quite this tactically (although both arts that I was involved in encouraged a lot of tactical thinking). In my case the RBSD thigns I picked up really rounded out my game and has been a great compliment to my more traditional training. If anyting I don't drill it enough in a class setting. However, I'm constantly running scenarios. Of course, all of this is still risky and there are a lot of things that could go against me. So I'm going to most likely hand over the wallet if they get that close. But where I draw the line is if they do something physically aggressive towards me. And that's out of the simple fact that if one of them sucker punches me, I'm in really bad position. Not impossible to get out of (see a recent journal entry by Thomas), but bad. So in that case I have nothing to lose by taking the initative (and pontentially a lot to gain). - Matt
Ok i see where your coming from, and i totally agree, I should take such a class as well, because it seems to cut the crap, and gives you what will work, and not set u up for a beating. so its all good.
Thats a pretty good debate you guys have going on here. I just wanted to add that even though things can go wrong for the "victims" here they can also go wrong for the attacker. To give a real life example, some time ago back in my home country I had a misunderstanding with a guy. As the misunderstanding escalated he was getting a bit too close for my likying so I threw him back with a kick but didnt follow up on it since the incident happened in my block and over there your "turf" is the safest place to be. To make a long story short the guy gets up, throws a few curses at me and draws a folded knife(buterfly knife?) and as he does the wrist motion required to expose the blade the knife slips from his hand and lands more than 5 feet in front of him. Needless to say it wasnt the best of things to happen to the guy.
And here's another story of the problems with trying to do fine motor skills when you're amp'ed. - Matt
True, that's probably why thugs with pistols can't hit anything but innocent bystanders from more than 15 feet. Besides, all you need to do is run anyway, hit and run!
