'Real World' nastiness on the ground

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Shiho-Nage, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    When someone is on your back and your stomach down

    when someone is on your back, but they are back down

    when someone is mounted on top of you

    when someone is "knee on belly"

    when someone is on top in side control (think a chest to chest pin) AND they control the one arm near your face (which they should do)

    when your in someone's half guard AND they know how to position themselves on their side, in really close (where they should be)

    when your in someone's guard and they are using their arms to control either both your arms, or one arm and your head (like they should be)

    when somone has a "high guard" (the only guard i use)

    ANY position where a person properly controls you.

    i've grappled with thick "lab" goggles on many times. Unfortunately, extending your arms to, do anything, goes against a core principal of grappling in general.

    there are no absolutes. But in terms of self protection it is important to understand how to end up in mount (or some other top position) SO i can get to my feet to run.
  2. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    And the question IS... what would YOU do when someone who is 100 pounds heavier than you tries biting or gouging you when they take you down AND you don't know how to grapple?

    Your acting like there is something else you can do. i would love to know it.

    i apologize if this comes off hostel. i do not want it to. i study ground fighting so that when i am taken down and put in a bad position (against my will) against a larger, stronger opponent i will be able to get them off me and get to my feet.

    i don't study groundfighting to willingly go to the ground. i study groundfighting so i can get to my feet and run.
  3. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    But you need to be a good grappler in order to be able to get back up to your feet and run, so the only way forward is to train more. Otherwise you will get tapped/hurt before you have a chance to get to your feet.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The point I was making was more towards the idea of the differences between "big person jiu-jitsu" and "little person jiu-jitsu."

    If you have a significant strength and size advantage over you opponent (assuming one-on-one), then it is most likely that when going to the ground you will end up on top. From the top position you can drop shins, knee, and otherwise apply your body mass to points on the opponent while you "hang out" from the dominant position. You also can take advantage of "locking up" (grapple) with your opponent to counter their attempts to hit you and escape. This is "big person jiu-jitsu" IME.

    If you are at a significant strength and size disadvantage, then the chances are if you "lock up" (grapple) and get taken down, you will end up on the bottom and have to fight from there. You rather want to avoid "locking up" and instead use methods of JU (relaxation/suppleness) to be a wirery, hard to hit target that the opponent can't seem to get a good hold of. This is "little person jiu-jitsu" IME.

    Now, IMO, great grapplers employ both big person and little person jiu-jitsu at the same time (not one or the other, but a fluid combination of both). People not as skilled have a problem with this, they are either using little person OR big person JJ.

    For instance, I was at a hundred pound disadvantage and I took top mount. I was thinking "big person JJ" and I started to work the punches to the face, chokes and arm bar. I quickly found out that top mount was a disadvantage for me, because the person on the bottom was so much stronger than me that he trapped one of my hands and bit it. If he wanted to he could have maimed me, but I tapped out. Real world I would not have the option to tap out.

    I watched a much better grappler than me with the same weight disadvantage tap out the larger guy in a similar situation. How, because when he was in top mount, he did not stay in it, he let the bigger guy that was on bottom sweep him off, but he countered the sweep and used the movement to armbar the bigger guy.

    IMHO, it is much easier to avoid the bite or gough if you are using small person JJ. If one uses big person JJ and comes against someone stronger and larger, it isn't going to be easy to neutralize them to prevent the bites and goughes.

    Now when I say stronger and larger, I mean that to be relative. There are some small people that are like wild animals and there are some smaller people that are very supple, thereby they are able to come off as being much stronger and larger than they really are.

    Bottomline is that things like biting should not be underestimated.

    This would be what I call small person JJ... avoiding getting into bad situations/positions.
  5. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    i completely agree.
  6. StooDawg

    StooDawg New Member

    Isn't that just the definition of good JJ ? :)

    It seems like 'big person' JJ as you've described it is someone relying on their superior size AND their partner's lack of experience.

    I read somewhere earlier in the previous 5 pages, someone said they trained in ground work so that if they got taken there, they'd have the tools they needed to get back up. Man that made sense! :)

    I can understand an experienced ground fighter, up against another fighter not experienced in ground work at all wanting to take the fight to the ground, but I think we need to recognize the difference between an organized, controlled fight in a ring or cage compared to a scuffle outside a pub. In the ring I can take a guy to the ground and be assured that it's my skill against his. Outside a pub, the last place I want to be when his mates appear is tied up in a clinch on the ground!
  7. MacWombat

    MacWombat Valued Member

    Thank God you were here to resurrect this thread and contribute something completely original!

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