'Real World' nastiness on the ground

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Shiho-Nage, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    IMHO what technique you use to win a fight is irrelevent. It could be a gouge, bite armbar or whatever. The technique is the final part of the puzzle and not the puzzle itself.
    I've shown a little bit of ground fighting to my Karate club and always stress that being in a good (dominant) position is more important than the way you chose to end the fight. Many times the way you finish the fight is just s much determined by the mistakes your opponent does rather than what you chose to do.
    Being dominant give you options while cutting down your opponents choices.
    Striving for a dominant position stacks the odds in your favour.
    For example if you gain the mount. From there you can hold on for dear life and wait for people to break it up. Or you can go for a choke or armlock (if you're only grappling), or you can add in punching to the face (for MMA) and finally you could fish-hook the guy and gouge out one of his eyes. All of those are possible outcomes or choices you can make because you are in the dominant position.
    By contrast the guy that is mounted only has two choices. He can try and escape to a better position or he can try and employ dirty tactics (a eye jab could theoretically win the fight from under mount.
    His choices are restricted while yours range from simple retraint right up to maiming for life.

    A double lapel choke is particularly bad for exposing the performer to eye gouges. Not something I'd try on the street personally. However things like the RNC and the triangle (or just plain dominating the guy physically) give you a high degree of protection from dirty tactics while also giving you a fairly free rein to employ them yourself.
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.


    Hit the nail on the head.

    In a nutshell. "even if the technique is unsophisticated it is the one with the stronger fighting spirit who can dominate the attacker who shall win" I have been told this by shihan of numerous arts.It is a fundamental principle.

    regards koyo
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well I may have missed this part of your post. The part about agreed upon rules is for competition, safety and learning purposes. The adding of biting, goughing, ripping, etc. adds another level of complexity to the training. For learning purposes, this level of complexity is only added for self-defense training.

    Shiho-Nage, there are many grappling principles that apply to all areas of combat. One of those principles is to exert continuous pressure. Pressure does not mean lay on top of someone and spread your weight out. Pressure is specifically applying maximum pounds-per-square-inch in a small area.

    If one fails to apply pressure correctly, then the technique that follows will have to be forced to work, or it won't work. So it is thought to be much better to first apply effective pressure, then you don't have to force the technique to work. Have a good position and the correct distance (very close in) to apply pressure tends to be a necessity.

    Let's take the position of top mount. Say you are on the bottom and mounted by someone about your size. If their hips are by your hips, they have their weight on your hips... but the question is, where should they be applying pressure? One good place they should be applying pressure from top mount is directly onto your chest. Here is how it works, if they apply effective pressure to your chest, this makes it hard for you to breath, this also makes it hard for you to raise your shoulders. IF you can't raise your shoulders, this makes is hard for you to move your head up to bite them in the thumb or neck. Without your shoulders, it will be harder for you to reach with your arms to gough their eyes... etc.

    How one applies effective pressure to the chest from top mount is part of learning BJJ. One way is to move up from the hips and sit on the chest while putting your knees into their armpits, but there are other more direct methods that can be applied by the more skillful grapplers.

    Conversely, if they do not apply effective pressure to your chest from top mount, you will be pretty much free to bite and gough them.

    Now recall I said against someone your size. Now say the person is twice your size/weight. They can grab your arms and pin them to your chest, and apply pressure down so you can't breath. No bite, no gough opportunity there... better have something that uses the legs to help because that's about the only part of the body you on the bottom might be able to move.

    Now take the opposite, someone half your size has you in top mount. Can they apply effective pressure to your chest? If they can't, you will be able to bite them and gough them fairly easily. As a smaller person, when I get top mount against a larger person, most of the time I end up having to ride it out until the person on bottom makes a mistake or they tire out from the pressure on their chest restricting their breathing. It is not one of my favorite positions against a much bigger person.


    Now real world, what koyo and others have said about fighting spirit and positioning all goes along with the applying pressure I speak of, and it all has a bigger bearing than isolated techniques.

    There is a place in real world for weapons... teeth are very sharp and can be lethal weapons... but any weapon can be taken away... better to have strong basics, foundation, and superior fighting spirit to go along with anything.

    Some convicted rapists were known to cover their hand in a glove. They would shove this in/over the mouth of the victim. The victim could bite all she wanted but it would have no effect, plus the rapists would pick on people they thought would be easier targets partly because they were smaller in size and less attentive.

    Any weapon is only as good as it is ready and able to be deployed and used.
  4. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    I understand that 'dirty tactics' are no substitute for solid technique, whether that's from a standing position or on the ground. That was never my question or implication.

    If you go to the ground with someone that is very good at ground fighting and you're not, chances are they are going to hurt you in short order. I get it.

    In my experience practicing ground work I kept finding myself with opportunities to engage is 'non-standard attacks' while I was either working into a better position or working my way out of a poor one. This led me to wonder if people that do a lot of ground work ever factor these things in. Not once did I ever attempt to work my way into a particular position in order to gouge/bite/headbutt/etc. It just showed up organically from my movement on the ground.

    I've received a lot of very interesting and informative feedback from the forum. There's also been the fair share of 'don't you ever try that with [insert grappler here] or [they, I, we ] will do XXXX'. That's to be expected.

    Thanks again to everyone for their input. It has been helpful.
  5. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Sorry, the above is so true that it deserves to be read again ;)

    Also, along the whole 'dirty tactics' thing, the last time somebody tried to thumb me in the eye (a proper scrap BTW), I responded with probably the most vicious armbar I've ever done (no, I didn't break the guys arm).

    With 'dirty tactics', the guy that's going to have the advantage, is the guy who's a better grappler (in general). Why? Because he hasn't chosen to get 'dirty' on you yet, when you open that door you better be ready to get it right back ;)
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Generally it is the person with the most experience that is going to come into something with the advantage.

    When it starts to get into battlefield tactics, there is a lot that is considered in combat... biting, goughing, ripping being some of it. Weapons are another consideration. Things like how to keep the head down, how to control the person as a shield verse his buddy's bayonet attack, etc.

    The way grappling works is to neutralize the enemy's weapons. If the grappling is failing to neutralize the bite or gough or bayonet or kick, then it isn't doing what it is designed to do. However, the nice thing about grappling is that you can take away some of the more unsafe techniques/attacks and you still can work the combat principles and gain experience against resistance.

    When it comes to practical application... what is ultimately the way a grappler controls someone? It is the same as the way striking controls someone... knock them unconscious or kill their spirit (will to fight).
  7. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter


    You missed out 360 degree awareness.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    right I did, I left out a lot of stuff, that's why experience is so important. :p
  9. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!


    (Refering to earlier post): I just re-read my own stuff, and thought, "Boy, do I sound like Melville's whale, without the Moby part". I appologize if I came across as arrogant or impolite.
  10. American HKD

    American HKD New Member

    See above highlights!
  11. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    It doesn't matter if you are taught it, though. Unless you have sparred with it, you are unlikely to use it in a stressful situation because your timing will be wrong and you will revert to stuff that you are sure of. That's why sport ju jitsu is so important in JJJ and rolling is important in BJJ.
  12. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    I agree that sport has it's place for training but it needs to be modified for the street most BJJist's will agree.

    As in the case where Sport BJJ won't work in a Vale Tudo fight!
  13. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I believe GF was saying that if you don't pressure test/train your skills, they're probably not going to appear 'on da str33t' anyway.
  14. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Yes. :)
  15. Daimon

    Daimon New Member

    As has already been implied, even if someone does gouge, bite, or strike, there are positions in which doing so will cause little actual damage to their opponent, and an experienced grappler will continue with business as usual. And, to do any of those "dirty" fighting techniques while you are already in a bad position will increase the likelihood of you being on the receiving end of an extra vicioius assault.
    All of that assuming the contest is a real world scenario and not an accident on the mat.
  16. Hsoj

    Hsoj Valued Member

    There's positions where gouging and biting will do little damage???? Please tell me these positions. If you can get a finger in the eye you won't need any leverage to do seroius damage. If you can get your teeth near flesh all you have to do is chomp down. Now, it's true that striking is less effective on the ground ddue to leverage... but that's it. You can still bite and poke someone in the eye with no problem.
  17. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    Please explain how you would go about gouging and biting from under mount, or even inside guard for that matter.
  18. GIJoe6186

    GIJoe6186 Valued Member

    Eye gouging and biting are over rated. Have any of you actually been eyegouged or bitten? Have any of you done the gouging or biting? If you havent, your technique lays in the world of theory.

    It is very easy to defend against such "dirty" tactics when in a fight, especialy if you are trained in an alive art, that emphasises resistance, such as Sport JJ in JJJ, rolling in BJJ or Randori in Judo.

    Turning your head works wonders, If you think your just going to touch his eye and he will freak out, your mistaken. Once your hand touches they eye, he only needs to move his head and maybe close an eye. Unless you have the head pinned and static (grappling helps this) you wont be able to attack the eye well. Biting is dangerous for the biter. If a man bit me, all you have to do is jam your arm (if he bit that) into his mouth. You could ruin the teeth.

    Look at it from an evolutionary view. We arent built to hunt prey and kill them with our claws and razor sharp teeth. Our teeth are kinda dull and easily knocked out. Every play tug of war with a dog? They can hold on pretty tight. I dont think we can.

    When I roll in BJJ, I have thought of the dirty tactics and realize that unless I am in a superior position, my chances of using it are low and it will most likely leave me vulnerable.
  19. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Great post GIJOE, and I apologize in advance if this has been covered in this thread, but there's a few ways you can pressure test dirty tactics and illegal moves.

    First thing to do is invest in a pair of swimming or protective goggles (the smaller the better) and a good cup. Roll live, giving your partner geared up specific goals, while you try to see if you can successfully jam your finger into the goggles or strike/grab the cup with any leverage. I tried this against BJJ blues and a purple, and I can tell you I was highly unsuccessful, but who knows maybe you know something I don't.

    But as Joe said, it is true that these dirty tactics only really present themselves when you are in a highly dominant position. People underestimate how easy it is to clench your eyes shut and move away to avoid getting fingers in your eyes, and how putting your arm down by someones groin usually leaves you vulnerable to a plethora of submissions, not to mention not having a hand to protect your face from being struck.
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    This is a key statement IMHO.

    I still have scars where I've been bitten before. Every time I've been bitten it has been when I've left myself open to it. For instance, I might have top mount but not be applying good pressure on the opponent. When I don't apply good pressure it is easier for the person stronger and bigger than me to just grab my hand and bite below my thumb.

    Good technique (which includes continuous pressure and good positioning) tends to negate any opportunity for biting and goughing. Only when I've used bad technique have I tended to be open for bites and goughes.

    If you think it is easy to avoid bites and such in grappling, however, I would say it isn't that easy. I would point out to try to keep someone that weights 100 pounds heavier than you from biting or goughing. It isn't an easy thing at all, especially since even without the biting and goughing they would be a problem.

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