Reaction force, sine wave and rotation.

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Ironized, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. Ironized

    Ironized Valued Member

    well yeah, i always thought back fists were strikes...

    am i missing something?
     
  2. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    Yes. You are.

    There is no a single block in TKD! :D
     
  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Sorry, I was in a hurry last time and didn't have time to go into more detail.
    For backfist strike and knife hand strikes I think of the pull back arm as controlling the opponent. This might be limb control, neck control, a collar grab or whatever depending on the position of the pull back arm.

    The inner and outer forearm blocks I generally don't think of as blocks. Some would argue (as Alexander did) that there is no such thing as a "block" in TKD/Karate. I'm not sure I go that far but again, generally, I think the movement of a "block" indicates a lock or strike.

    I'll try and take some photos to illustrate the movements, or you could get hold of some of the books discussed on here or any of Iain Abernethy's books and you'll get some good ideas. "The Way of Kata" by Wilder and Kane is another good source.

    Mitch
     
  4. Lithanwif

    Lithanwif Human Punchbag

    A good few points here, and a few good answers. I've struggled with the sine wave/reaction force for a long time myself....

    I see Sine wave motion as an easy way to increase my mass. If I stand on scales and perform a sine wave motion my mass increases from 95 Kilos ( yeah yeah, one at a time please ) to over 110 kilos. Hence my power increases.

    Rotation I have always performed. Hip rotation in karate and rear foot rotation in boxing. Hand rotation also, and as far as I was told it was also to rip the skin.

    While on boxing, perhaps go back and look at old pictures of boxing from some of the bare knuckle fights at the beginning of the last century, or the end of the previous. That gaurd looks a bit low don't it? Punches being thrown from hip level too....Hm!!
     
  5. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Whatever the original reason(s) for pulling the hand back to the hip, I think it is pointless to continue doing so and should eventually be phased out!

    Viva la revolution!
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Try saying that when I grab your dobok collar and pull you onto a swift right hand. :)
     
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Spot on! The reaction hand is there for brawling, not sparring.

    Mitch
     
  8. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    You would pull my collar to your hip in order to punch me in the face? :rolleyes:

    Like I said, I believe it's a redundant movement. As for grappling in the clinch (which is the skill you describe), actually working drills in the clinch is the best method for training this. Not pulling your hand to your hip in a sitting stance while doing such-and-such a pattern.

    Patterns - and the reaction hand - provide no tangible return on investment when training for brawling or sparring. Brawling trains brawling and sparring trains sparring - not patterns.
     
  9. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Of course.. patterns train self defence so you don't have to brawl or spar!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
  10. Iam

    Iam Valued Member

    I reckon the reaction hand does improve power, though ... javellin throwers use it, & they can't all (cough) be wrong.

    Effectiveness in a brawl/sparring's another matter, likewise the degree to which patterns train the grappling hidden movements (got a book re this on the Amazon wish list atm, know vert little about it), but, if you really had to peg someone, wouldn't you use the reaction hand, plus a lot more hip twist than in sparring?

    ('Course, you might well need to daze them with something quick & dirty first, to get that more powerful hit in).

    I think of breaking, the rare times I practise it anyway. Everyone I see uses the full shooting match, reaction hand, hip twist, sine wave, weight into blow, even sine wave, well, apart from the fist rotation anyway ... I've always found the breaking board to tear a tad less than the skin on my knuckles, oddly enough.

    Agree totally with that point about doing drills for use in clinches though, wish I did more of that, more one step SD in general.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
  11. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    But why use patterns as the medium for training SD techniques? It's hardly likely you will fight in the same sequence as appear in patterns.

    Develop muscle memory - shadow box

    Training against resistance - partner work

    Build accuracy & power - bag & pad work

    Develop speed, timing & distance - sparring

    Any benefits of patterns I missed?
     
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Javelin throwing force is produced by an entirely different process. The agonist muscles are subjected to an almost ballistic pre-stretch [cocking the javalin], which increases the amount of muscle fibres that contract during the shortening [release] stage. This force is developed to a higher degree by repeated practice of the same movement at speed.

    Reaction hand practice (i.e. punching in patterns) does not increase power [strength]. Specific strength for punching is developed by punching a heavy bag, punching into layers of sponge or punching with bungee cords attached to your arms.
     
  13. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    People should get over this "hidden movements" fad. It's just a selling point IMO. There never were any "hidden" grapples in patterns; that was just made up to redirect attention from the fact that TKD had an inherent weakness - no real grappling to speak of.

    You think you could land a proper hit trying to do that over-exaggerated hip twist? Or worse still - sine wave? :rolleyes:

    I ain't even going to bother addressing your points on breaking.

    Gnah... it's late, my painkillers have worn off and I'm craving chocolate :(
     
  14. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I like using the term opponent in place of partner, so the labels can help insure that they realize their true place
     
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    No & it is not meant to be employed as such. One must realize that it is a small part of the theory of power for perfoming techniques in isolation, not in fighting. When engaged in combat one must use what is needed & adapt in order to meet the threat at hand. One should also train under realisitc conditions if trying to learn SD. However TKD is an Art of SD which has additional benefits & reasons for training in it & studying it. There are certainly better or more efficient ways to train for combat if that is the desired or most important goal, no doubt about that
     
  16. Iam

    Iam Valued Member

    Yep, good points all SF ... thinking about the javelin thrower example, they do turn everything into the throw, I think ... body side facing one way, then the whole shoulder goes into it, whereas we keep the shoulders pretty much square (& that's a bit of an oddity for simple power generation), so not really a good example, granted.

    That landing of the "proper hit" - I did add a proviso to that, & sure yes, you wouldn't try to hit someone in the first place with a perfect by-the-book move, hardly narani chumbi sogi to gunnun so ap jirugi :)

    Plus, true again, there are better ways of training specifics, as you say, but I still reckon the reaction hand must have some benefit for generating power (ok, in an ideal world). I don't know what's so off with a comparision with breaking, granted it's a static rigid target though, but don't people use reaction hand when breaking?

    Anyway, enjoy your chocolate :)
     
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You've really got a bee in your bonnet about patterns at the moment haven't you? :D

    This statement is fundamentally incorrect and yet also true, IMO.

    I don't believe the TKD patterns were ever designed with bunkai in mind. They weren't known to the people who designed them and weren't relevant as far as they were concerned.

    The TKD patterns are chopped up Shotokan, and there were bunkai for Shotokan kata originally. This was generally not hidden, it was just taught with the kata. There seems to be a suggestion that some secret bunkai may have been present (Way of Kata discusses this for the Goju Kata), but I'm not sure about that.

    So the basic grappling (clinch work might be a better term for it as I think it's almost all vertical grappling) contained in the patterns comes from TKD's karate ancestry rather than anything in TKD, is not hidden at all but is just not taught very often as people slavishly follow non-sensical moves. All IMO of course. :)

    Mitch
     
  18. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Thats the whole point.. you train them so you (hopefully) don't have to fight. To me, they are the first few seconds of an altercation, a way to stop a fight starting at the onset.. if you muck up (or don't train them that way) then you are left having to fight! have you read my book btw?

    Shadow boxing develops muscle memory for exactly that - boxing aka punching in a fight mode - not the same as pattens IMO, due to the techniques pefromed within each.

    yes.. the whole point of practicing them in the first place! :)

    In all seriousness, I am way past trying to 'convert' people, if you mind is made up (and it sounds like it is) so be it!

    Stuart
     
  19. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    All summed up nicely I believe in the article 'TKD's Black hole' in issue 1 of TotallyTKD mag!

    Stuart
     
  20. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Try running without the arms moving . They are needed dynamicaly. The idea is being given to you to use the arms not to do it exactly as the pattern.
    How about the use of the arms in kicking and kneeing? The Thais prove it in full contact fights that the arms add more. For punching its more difficult to see ,its subtle.
     

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