re niinpo and bjj

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dead_pool, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    This is getting stupid, It was Kens decision to fight 4 days before the UFC, he could have gone straight to Denver and spent 2 weeks acclimatising it was his choice to fly to Japan he knew when the competition was, not even you can blame the Gracie’s for something he decided to do! Wait you probably can lol this should be interesting lets hear it
    On the Gi front yes it can help if used properly, just as wearing boots can help a wrestler with traction and grip for his shoots, and wearing a boxing glovd could help a boxer, both of which were allowed, what wasn’t allowed was to kick someone wearing shoes,
    So explain how exactly it was a help to them to have a ref who was a GJJ guy, when there were no rules? What specifically did he do in royces first three fights that helped him? They wanted someone who was expereicned with NHB type of fights to ref, where exactly were they going to find said guys if not from the Graice schools?
    While you are at it What did Big John do in the next thee UFC’s that helped Royce?
    Oh and who else was going to ref it, no sports commission was going to touch the thing with a 10 foot barge pole, so no boxing or kick boxing ref would have been allowed or wanted to be part of it, maybe the WWF could have spared one of their refs?

    So to recap please explain how a decision made by Ken was somehow all part of the Gracie’s plans for their infomercial, come to think of it his fights lasted a total of less than 4 minutes so exlapin how the jet lag effected him please?? Where else they could have found a ref willing to and able to ref a NHB event, and how specifically the ref aided Royce in his fights
     
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    yep just as the boxer wanted to wear a glove for his advantage, and was allowed, and the wrestlers boots and they could wear them if they wanted to, just couldnt kick with them, after seeing the sumos teeth come out i suspect most the competitors were glad of that rule
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Oh don't misunderstand me, I am not for one second suggesting it was "rigged" for Royce because he could wear the gi. Everyone wore what they wanted...in fcat i remember everyone saying right up until UFC 2 that the gi was a DISADVANTAGE to Royce in the fight ("Couldn't that be pulled over his head like in a hockley fight?" was the question often asked IIR)
     
  4. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    One thing that I would say gives newaza based grapplers an advantage (not that I see a way to get around it because to fight on solid ground would be ridiculous and uninsurable) is that a good slam or ippon throw could well be a knockout on a different surface (whereas a knockout by strike or submission is unaffected by that). However, this doesn't especially apply to the UFC situation in particular because it goes back a lot longer, to the Kimura/Gracie match even.
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Keith hackney soon proved that was a stupid decision.

    Gi vs nogi gives the other guy a lot of advantages, even if they dont know much.
     
  6. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Oh I know you weren't doing that, I was really responding to the guy about to use this as part of his conspiracy theory lol
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    So the ref being a Gracie student makes it fair and unbiased how exactly?:rolleyes:

    Gene LeBell.:woo:
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Gene would of been awesome!

    But there were no ref decisions, there was no subjectivity, two men enter, 3 possible fouls, and thats it.

    Badda bing baddam boom.
     
  9. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    "You blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

    Speaking of which, apparently there's Godfather themed BJJ gear coming out, so maybe one of us will innovate a move called the Corleone or the Luca Brasi or something. :woo:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    So
    Sorry I think I snoozed off there, where again was your actual specific complaint about them being biased? Or as usual is it going to be vague hints and no substance??
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I guess you and I disagree on what is substantive but let me sum up this part of the thread for you.

    Me: The UFC was not some unbiased attempt to pit each art against each other in the most fair and scientific way to find out which art would come out on top.

    Talking Heads: NO WAY MAN, I LOVE THE UFC! You are only saying that because your art is weak, there's no proof, blah blah blah.

    Me: Really? I'm a fan of MMA and the UFC myself, just I don't buy into the whole early marketing plan. Well, two guys from an offshoot of my art won. There's proof out there if you're willing to look for it.

    Talking Head: NO, UFC IS THE ULTIMATE! IF YOU DON'T STUDY JUIJUTSU YOU SUCK, IT'S THE MOST REAL, IT WAS FAIR, YOU STILL DON'T HAVE PROOF.

    Me: Calm down, I have nothing against the Gracies, just telling you what I read. Rorion changed the brackets. The unlimited time frame was hardly beneficial to the strikers of the day who trained for shorter rounds, speaking of which, they didn't have the highest caliber of strikers to represent their arts.

    TH: NO! I WANT TO BELIEVE!

    Me: :rolleyes: No need to yell, you are getting spittle on the screen. The UFC was and is great, just it isn't what they claimed it was. It was basically a Gracie Infomerical(the Gracies openly admit this).

    TH: YOU HATE THE GRACIES, YOU'RE JEALOUS, YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE YOUR ART SUCKS! THERE'S NO PROOF!

    Me: Okay, you win.:) There's no point discussing this with people who believe in Santa Claus. The proof is out there if you are willing to find it.

    TH: NO, YOU MADE THE CLAIM, YOU SHOW US! YOU'RE OBTUSE!

    Me: This is boring but here you go, here's the proof.

    TH: NO IT'S NOT, that's a book name and chapter name, HOW DARE YOU CLAIM THAT THIS IS PROOF? THIS IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY!

    Me: :jawdrop: You're right, I give up, you win. The UFC was fair and unbiased.

    TH: Got that right.:woo:

    Me: Except for Rorion changing brackets, the refs being Gracie students, the lack of caliber(not the fault of the creators, they had to spend 30 grand on the Octagon instead of paying their fighters more money because Rorion had seen fighters escape through the ropes before), the time limits, oh yes how about the gi thing Shamrock brings up, etc.

    TH: Puts fingers in ears. BJJ ROCKS! EVERYTHING ELSE LOSES!

    Me: You do understand what unbiased means right? Nobody said anything about fixing fights, conspiracies, or anything else. Just pointed out facts that show it was an attempt to spread the Gracie name, not an unbiased tournament to figure out which martial art was the best. No big deal really, I still watch it.

    TH: YOU'RE VAGUE, ALOOF, SMUG, HANDSOME, and OBTUSE!

    Me: ;)

    Okay, you claim it was fair and unbiased, please prove it. Otherwise, quit making excuses because they are different from refutations. The things I've claimed are true, you've gotten your proof. No conspiracies, no exaggeration. So deal with it or bend the knee.:hail:
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not the question, my question was how the refs being Gracie students was either fair or unbiased? Would you enter a tournament where the guy who created it's brother was fighting, the refs were their students, and you knew nothing about the format or what you were up against? Maybe you would, but that doesn't sound like a winning proposition.
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Youve just described competing against gracie barra at ibjjf events, which I've done. The lesson is dont leave it up to the refs. Which in ufc 1 you couldn't anyway.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You just pretty much described every tournament in the UK domestic scene!
     
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Never leave it up to the refs.;) Still though, that didn't answer the question(original one about the refs). I could see competing in something where the stakes were low and it was a learning experience, but personally I wouldn't get involved if I didn't know what the deal was. Of course when we set up the Ultimate Ninja Championship Day of Reckoning, that is what it's going to be like for all non ninjas. Sorry.
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    PR, we started production of the first event :p

    Now we have the satellite footage of the combat area... I know all the MMA guys and gals show up as big red silhouettes due to their heat signatures, but tell me again, are the ninjas the ones that have the silhouettes of small animals, or are they completely invisible on camera? :Alien:
     
  17. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    I haven't, but i am fairly sure you haven't either, which means you know exactly as much as i do, so you saying it does is as equally meaningless as me saying it didn't, but in all honesty, would you call dispatching a totally out matched foe in less than a minute without ever being struck competition?

    Further more, i made the comparison because you were harping on about how much of a disadvantage shamrock had, and i was pointing out that other people had similar disadvantages and did rather well despite them, you seem to think there was some outlying advantage for Gracie, but he was still fighting high above sea level days after he arrived, against a field of competitors who all outweighed him, pretty much the entire field had to overcome the hurdle of altitude, and the only two people who spent more than a few hours in a plane finished second or lost to the eventual victor, a long haul flight might cause you to need a few days of r and r, but it didn't seem to do much to the guys who finished in the top of the bracket.
     
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I wasn't harping on about anything. Shamrock had a fight a few days before in another country. FACT. He had to deal with the physiological stress of getting ready for, fighting, and dealing with the coming down from that no matter how long the fight was. If you've ever fought, you'd understand that.

    You're comparison was based on an assumption that it could've affected Shamrock because it didn't affect another fighter(your assumption). The question was how do you know it didn't? Shamrock, by his own admission, felt that it affected his performance(see interview). Whether you believe him or not is up to you.

    I think Rorion tampered with the brackets, had GJJ students as refs, and did other things in the creation of the UFC to make sure that GJJ had the best chance of winning(not an equal chance). I never said a think about a conspiracy or worked fights. You can choose not to see how these things might have given GJJ an advantage, but so far I haven't seen anybody refuting the proof or the claims I made about the factual record in this case.
     
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Nope, don't be silly.:vanish:

    You know good and well that they show up as blue balls of kukan.
     
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    So as per usual nothing specific from you? Ken is the only one saying then bracket changed and what exactly helped the Gracie if they put him second, why not put him on the other side all together? The time limits , god you still haven't explained how that helped the Gracie's when every fight Royce had lasted less than a single boxing round, and since there was no ref decisions and nearly no rules we are still waiting for you to explain exactly how the refs helped Royce? And no the best strikers weren't there neither was the best Gracie...You are so vague its not even funny.
    You are making allegations with no substance, without listing how those things actually helped the Gracie's, its classic conspiracy theory stuff. Stop listing what might have helped the Gracie's and list specific things that did, for example
    1) the refs weren't biased as no one was disqualified and Royce won all his matches by sub
    2) round length was immaterial since all his fights lasted under 3mins
    3) he faced ken second after both had settled their nerves with easy fights against non grapplers, ken finished his quicker than Royce, so he faced the only other grappler with mma experience second, so the bracket argument doesnt work either
    Now refute the above with specifics please
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015

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