re niinpo and bjj

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dead_pool, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I actually consider myself as being friends with PR and I enjoy the cut and thrust of discussion with him, even when we do not agree - I 100% agree with Fusen; this adds a balance to the forum and gets you thinking and exploring your own notions and preconceptions
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Alright then. Have at it (within ToS). I'd viewed the tone of these exchanges as being mostly frustrated leaning toward hostile. If that's not how this is going, then there isn't a problem. Fair enough?
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    All's fair in love and war(and the ninjutsu forum?).

    I don't know if I agree with Shamrock about the shoes vs gi, but allowing one but not the other(shoes were allowed but no kicks if you wore them) would potentially give an advantage. Now you see bare chested guys in trunks or spandex so things have come a long way. There is definitely something to be said for being able to use your clothing as a weapon, but not necessarily in competition(unless all have the option and ability). It's also unclear if he really thought it was going to be a worked match, but maybe.

    I do agree with his point about having to deal with the physiology of having just fought and the jet lag. Could it have played a role in his performance? Sure, but so would underestimating his opponent. Of course that's not Rorion's fault.;)
  4. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    To be fair though, everyone had to fly into Denver apart from Pat Smith, and i believe the Gracies only arrived the day before shamrock did, but by the same token, Gordeau flew just as far and displayed no real issues with jet lag against his opponents.
  5. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    Clothing has shown to not really be an issue in MMA. As you can see here

    The AFC allowed shoes to be worn and they were allowed to kick while wearing them. and people wore all sorts in the competition.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2015
  6. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    shamrck liked making excuses, nothing new there, just like nothing new in your vague hints of stacking the comp in royces favour, still waiting for any proof that this happened, oh and listing a book isnt a source
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

  8. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    interesting points from a participant in the event, who made the points, but said it was the real deal.

    If this had been posted at the start, i would have admitted these points right off the bat.
  9. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    But its not backed up by what actually happened? both Royce and ken faced strikers in the first round, both of whom lost in under 2mins, if they did fix the brackets why fix it so they ended up fighting second, ?
    And it sounds like it was kens decision to fight 3days before the first ufc in japan, his decision to not acclimatise to the altitude, and since the loss lasted under a minute you cant blame his loss on lack of fitness
  10. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    And the fact that when you look at Ken's biography he wasn't used to losing and seemed to have a rather uneven temperment at times. Now he gets beaten by someone with inferior striking who is smaller and less muscular than himself, in under a minute in an area of fighting he considered his domain; grappling. It's easy to see why Ken might have thought it was stacked.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If you get the chance his autobiography is hilarious, every match he wins its all down to him, every match he looses, its always down to someone else.

    I guess dan gable was right about steriod users being week mentally!
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I completely agree, i think ken couldnt deal with the ufc's reality.

    ive previous read an article which said ken thought it was prowrestling untill he saw that first fight.
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    We aren't talking about all MMA, just the first UFC. Obviously, if restrictions on shoes were in the rules, so should've restrictions on other forms of clothing, gi's included. The question is whether going into the event the athletes knew and understood the competition, the format, the rules, and whether or not they were advantages for any particular art built into the UFC. Funny that nobody seems to want to touch on the refs.:rolleyes:

    Just because it didn't appear to affect Gordeau doesn't make it a valid issue. I've made the flight from Japan to the States more than a few times and can tell you it takes getting used to. He had just fought a few days before and there is a lot of physiological toll that goes into that as well.

    This video has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, interesting video though. The UFC allowed shoes but no kicking, that was the deal. So clearly in somebody's mind it made a difference. In Pancrase(the ruleset Ken was used to fighting), you could kick with shoes. Another note about the sham, he was used to worked fights and even the MMA in Japan had a strong pro wrestling contingent and legacy involved, so that might've played some part in his preparation and understanding of the first UFC. He does make a lot of excuses, but that doesn't mean that some of the things he says aren't valid.

    The chapter in the book has all the information I was talking about. Hannibal also posted an article, it is not anybody's job to make you read, just point out where the information came from. Nothing vague about what I said, and you will never know what was claimed if you never bother to look so the ball's in your court. You can continue to discuss what you haven't read, or chime in with something after you've read and understood what Rorion did(according to several sources).

    Again, a simple search would've given you information that showed that the UFC was a Graciemercial that Rorion helped create to plug his family's style. That he changed brackets and other things aren't some big secret held in the ninja vault.

    If you want to believe that the UFC was some unbiased experiment in what would happen when you pit different arts against each other, go ahead. Don't let facts get in the way of that belief.:)
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If you wear shoes, you create an advantage to yourself, if you wear a gi, you give away an advantage to your opponent.

    I don't see how banning striking with shoes but allowing them to be worn was a disadvantage.
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    nope its not like you hit people with the gi?
    Its just another smoke screen really coming from the ninja lol, if you allowed people to kick with shoes on you are basically allowing them to bring a weapon into the cage

    As for the refs the guy in the first UFC was terrible, i remember him throwing out a towel when someone threw it in to stop a fight, then after that Big John became the ref, uniformly considered the best in the business? I think they both knew the gracies but who else was going to ref sa true NHB event, who else actually had experience of this type of fighting?
  16. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    He'd taken the flight more than once, so it's hardly like he was a novice, he'd been working in japan on a regular basis since 1990, which makes it about as invalid of an issue as you say the flight Gordeau took to the states was, given that as far as can be found it is the first time Gordeau competed in the United States, not to mention that high above sea level.
  17. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    THIS would be why everyone says you are obtuse Please reality, Yes with google I could have looked it up, I could look up anything , so why bother posting on a forum.

    Anyone else would have made a claim and presented some sources. You on the other hand are content to make a claim and the just smugly say, "look it up on google."

    How about in future if you have a claim , you back it up , instead of being smug.
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Hardly being smug. It's obtuse to expect people that claim an event is fair and equal to actually know what they're talking about instead of just quoting claims the event and one of it's creator's made?:rolleyes: Like I said, blind faith is blind. If you wanted to look into it, you could've. That's the point. Others have been able to find and post info so it's obviously possible. The book was something I read years ago and didn't remember but....

    Since I started posting about it, I actually did take the time to LOOK IT UP and POST IT here. ;)Funny that, I'm the obtuse one but you have been given the name and chapter of a book that has the evidence, as well as an article that says the same thing and can't be bothered to actually read them.

    That's fine, you obviously don't want to know the truth, but whether it relates to ninjutsu or anything else, if you don't do your own seeking, you will never get past the surface. Laziness is never an excuse for a lack of intellectual curiosity.
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You have done jujutsu right? There is a big difference between choking with a gi as opposed to no gi. If you know what you're doing(and I'd say Royce was pretty experienced with jujutsu), wearing a gi can be a big advantage. If the adversary is also familiar with jujutsu(none were in this case), he could use it against you as well, but in the first UFC this was not the case whereas it was the case that Royce having the gi on was an advantage in this particular fight.

    Hit people with the gi?:dunno: You're not being serious I hope? Hardly a smoke screen, if you wear a gi and know how to use it, it can give you a grip and more leverage for chokes, it it comes undone, you have material hanging out there that can be used to distract or blind(also choke as well).

    Here we are with the excuses.:rolleyes: They had to have two Brazilian guys, who just happened to do GJJ, referee the first UFC because nobody else knew how. Good one. However, you don't see how that gives an advantage to the Gracies?


    You ever taken a fight at altitude 4 days after you fought in a country 13 hours away? If not, how do you know it won't affect a fighter's performance? Your argument is silly, first of all we aren't comparing Gordeau and Shamrock. Secondly, how do you know it didn't affect Gordeau's performance? Thirdly, if it affected either, then clearly it was a disadvantage to them.
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Royce wanted the Gi because he belived it afforded him an advantage when things got sweaty - he was probably right in that regard too

    Now the flight issue is crappy planning on the part of those fighters and has nothing to do with the UFC

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