How drunk are we talking about? Still lucid, or muck-faced vertiginous drunk to the point of being incapacitated? I ask because if you're still lucid there's some possibility of truth to that because you're still choosing to do things. But if you're too drunk to walk or talk you don't have much agency.
So that's the extent of your communication skills "No" followed by a Tazer blast? Don't get me wrong that'd do the job and its possible that the scenario may reach a point where the Tazer is your only option but generally you'd want your self defence plan to be a bit more resourceful than the high risk option of involving a weapon. I'm not totally up on the psychology of it all but if this is truly an individual who's entitlement is causing them to forget the possible consequences of their actions then a simple controlling fence with the phrase "No, you are trying to have sex with me when I don't want to. You are trying to rape me. Back off" may be an easy way to send a message more affirmatively than a simple "Stop" and get the mans attention long enough to make him realise what he is doing. A flexible approach is key, by basing your self protection plan on the employment of a weapon you base your plan on violence. I think if people are going to carry weapons they need to have options outside of that weapon otherwise they're just going to end up deploying that weapon in every situation because their tool box is limited to only a fistful of overly simplistic options.
The problem there is the same entitlement that makes them feel it's okay to bulldoze over your 'No' is the same entitlement that makes them really peed off when you back that 'No' up. If he doesn't respect one 'No' how do you know he will respect the next 'No'? And how do you possibly fail to comprehend 'No' or 'Stop' like you described?? Someone who takes 'No' as a meaningless joke is also likely to take 'Stop it, you're trying to rape me' as a meaningless joke. I went out with one of those when I was 16 and even more crappy at reading body language and behaviour than I am now and I said about 20 'Nos' all evening as well as more long winded 'I don't want to do X so stop asking' and had to physically subdue him when he decided that 'No' really meant 'Please grab my arms and try and immobilize me'. If a normal sized adult male were trying to do anything to me against my will I'd be very leery of deploying nothing more than words. You don't know he will respect those. Entitled A-holes usually seem to take it as either more no-means-yes bluffing or as a source of anger. Maybe I'm just an oversensitive nut but whenever I was with a guy the tiniest possible sign that he wanted to stop, I paid attention and if he said no to ANYTHING I immediately backed off out of a visceral sense of boundaries.
there's the little fact that in most places, if someone continues attempting to have sex with you after you have told him/her that you do not want him/her to, that someone is attempting to commit a crime, regardless of whether it is intended as such or not. i am not particularly fond of people committing crimes against my person. if a guy tries to rape me, my initial inclination would be to attempt to beat his face in. if i wake up and a woman is straddling me, i presumably might very well choose to beat her face in in the process of getting her off me (inb4 wannabe machos commenting on that) and calling the police. if a woman is continually harassed by a guy that wants to bed her, i would say she is completely justified in attempting to beat the guy's face in, or if necessary, taze him. it might not be completely legal, it might not be completely ethical unless the other person already has his/her pants off or is actively threatening you, but seriously, they committed a crime first, and one that can have extremely serious ramifications if escalated to an extreme, and i would not be willing to take that chance, or expect anyone else to, so the person doing the harassment can well and truly go screw themselves.
Thanks Fish. The thing is, I get that using multiple 'layers' of de-escalation is theoretically more reasonable than skipping straight to violence. But what I would be fearful of is that person might not respect those 'layers' and you would be putting yourself in more danger. There's already something wrong when you say 'No' and they choose to keep going. How do you know that same factor won't kick in when you've already said a bunch of nos and are now up to spelling out 'Stop it. Back off. You are trying to rape me'. I would not want to take that risk. I'm too damn light and small for that. Saying no again might get the message across or it might be the point at which the guy just pins you down. And then what do you do? LOL, this is why I'm asocial as heck these days. You can't rape me when I'm 5 miles away at my computer.
It sucks. I don't want to have testicles, but dear lack of a god I hate structuring so many behaviour patterns around the fact that a male: - may lock on me as a sex object - can rape me if they so chose. Except you Alex...powerbomb slam ftw...sorry, I couldn't resist .
I can see both sides of the current argument--if women have "layers" of de-escalation they may be more likely to get their point across to men with a sense of entitlement trying to "claim their prize", so to speak, but women also should not NEED to do this and by doing it they may very well appear to be pleading (a sign of weakness) that will set off the predator. Against the "persistent, entitled male" I think that three layers seem plenty sufficient: 1: "No." 2: "No! You're trying to rape me!" 3: End the threat by any means necessary. If the assailant is already in physical contact with you and attempts to retain that contact when you pull away, skip straight to step 3. I'm with Fish--whether they believe it or not, they are committing a crime and you have the right to defend yourself (in most places, anyway) so go ahead and defend yourself. Step 3 is where my recommendations in my original response to this thread come in--you don't need martial arts training to tell someone you don't want to have sex with them, but martial arts training (particularly in the arts I mentioned, in my opinion) could be the difference between going home, going to the hospital or going to the morgue.
"You don't know" - That's exactly the problem! Making the communication as clear and repetitive as possible before moving to a tazer allows you to know. If he ignores you the first time he might simply of been in auto-pilot. But if you have said so multiple times, made attempts to move out of proximity and had a stand off where you're BL has made visually clear you are not game.... and he still press's forward for another kiss. (Or otherwise made 0 reaction to your protests and is rapidly trying force you into sex -not giving you time to protest-) Then you know for a certain that this guy is not going to stop until you get vicious. That way your tazer use would be pretty legally and morally justifiable as you get to say "I tried every other option". I'm just emphasising the fact that without trying other routes of de-escalation you end up playing a very dangerous guessing game that can end up assuming the worst when it doesn't need to.
Doing that once got me physically grabbed in an immobilization hold. I was just lucky that he was a weakling who probably spent too much time in front of the computer and I have long tendons which produce a lot of strength for my low weight. The next girl who tries the 'poly layers' route might not have the luxury of being stronger than him.
If someone is so drunk they cant understand simple language like 'NO!', then they are way too drunk, are an idiot and IMHO, if they get a kick in the balls/taser/poke in the eye if they harass a vulnerable person, then they no doubt deserved it Drink only removes inhibitions. It doesn't make men rape, it allows them to
The poly-layers approach, i FEEL (remember, I'm no expert), is the most viable one I can come up with for most any female to male interaction as it covers benign and malevolent encounters. Say it goes down like this: Setting - house party (in a public, but otherwise unoccupied space) decent guy: hi there, having a good time? cautious girl: uh, yeah. decent guy: hey do you wanna dance? cautious girl: no thanks (first refusal) decent guy: <perhaps conditioned to expect "no" at first from women> aw come on, youre at a party after all. come on, lets go have some fun <perhaps takes girl by the hand> cautious girl: <pulls hand away> I said no (second refusal). ---- off! decent guy: ok, ok! jesus christ... <walks away> this story, summarized, comes from my own life experience. In my own case I didnt grab the girls hand, but some guys might. I did, however, expect to hear "no" from her at first and persisted until she made her position firm with her second refusal. without a the poly-layer approach the situation could have become needlessly escalated. anyhow, it sucks that in your case it didnt work out that way. but im glad to hear you put that skinny little ******* in his place.
That happens, hell it's happened to me. Kind of related, there's a club in Newcastle (digital) were all blokes seem to be creeps, which means when a non creepy bloke (i like to think of myself as a non-creep) try's to chat a lady up the response is nearly always hostile, to keep myself out of trouble now I never bother in there anymore. See that, situational awareness, I'm like a real martial artist.
Sorry...I just don't get waiting for a second refusal. What part of no thanks could possibly mean yes?
I know plenty of girls (mates) who as a rule that they say no once, to see how keen he really is or look cool or not look easy or whatever. It's like the old 'wait 3 days before calling' rule.
I've been at the gym so sorry for taking this back a couple pages guys. Cool. My only problem with that is it only works for face to face situations which honestly I don't see as likely to lead to rape. Judging from the last few posts the stuff about drunk guys in clubs is already being discussed so I won't go into that but while I beleive there needs to be a big social shift from seeing grabbing girls in clubs, happens to one of my mates a lot and I will happily make something out of it if it happens in front of me, I don't see it as knife worthy. Punch in the face worthy yes, but not potentially lethal force worthy. That guy wanted to grab your breasts probably, but I doubt he would of outright tried to rape you. Definitely happens don't get me wrong, but its unlikely. My problem with that approach for rape is the same beef I have with the "I carry a knife for knife defence" type arguments in that if I want to stab you and that is my intent from the start then the first thing you'll know about it is when I plant it in you. I'm not going to walk towards your face and pull the blade 5 metres from you and give you a chance to react. Same deal with proper predatory rape. Like I said earlier I don't actually know the modus operandi for these people so ignore me if I'm off the ball but if I wanted to attack you (luckily I can tell from a quick glance you're stronger than me so you'll never have to worry about it ) then my plan would be to isolate your arms, probably a bear hug from behind, and I know you're going to make a noise so I want to shut you up. I can put a hand over your mouth, but that sacrifices control so I'd hold a knife to your throat. Same deal here. I won't walk up to you with it dangling from my hand. I'll come up to you from behind and I'll have practiced keeping that blade concealed until I've got hold of you. Get spooked and keep glancing over your shoulder? Pick a new target. So at what point do you pull it? When you feel someone touch you? I then wonder what happens to the guy who rushes past you and happens to bump your shoulder. When I grab you? If I've got it right (and since I know no one wants this crap to happen to them I'll pick someone I feel I have a significant strength advatnage over) then at least one arm will be trapped and you'll have a knife at your neck. As soon as I see your hand go in your pocket or a knife in your hand I'll kill you. Probably preferable to you but not to most people I dare say. And then I have to ask how big your knife is? I just bought a lock knife (vicious thing you'd love it ) but its not huge. I've seen people get stabbed in the body in fights and keep swinging. Unless you aim perfectly and hit an artery then assuming I even realise I've been stabbed I'm now in the same position and am ****ed. In normal SD situations you've now just given a mugger or something a reason to kill you. In this case you've given me motive to make your ordeal far more brutal and then maybe kill you. Putting yourself in the mindset of a rapist is really depressing. That was dragged out and I ommitted a few things but my point is this idea that you'll actually have time to react in a proper attack is crap in my opinion. The only time that sort fo thing happens as far as I can tell is when people are drunk and having fights over ego. Normal scraps outside bars which while we all know can turn fatal do not warrant the introduction of a lethal weapon. A drunk looking for a fight on a Friday ngiht is a dick but doesn't deserve to be killed. And then obviously if you're squaring up and you pull a knife then you've just hideously escalated it etc etc. Drawn out and as usual my brain went everywhere so sorry if its not clear or rambly. Point is in any proper attack scenario chances are you won't have the warning time to pull a weapon in my opinion. I could be completely wrong however.
Well you know, for some people every single conversation isn't a lif or death scenario were we might need an illegal offensive weapon, sometimes we're just student flirting.
Not illegal, Steve. My little thing is 1.5". And to answer Southpaw's question...I realize that carrying a lock knife does not mean being rape proof, but it *is* better than nothing at all. If I had to fight off a normal sized adult male I'd rather have it than not have it. I could at least possibly sever a tendon and you can't rape me if you have no use of your hand.
Not rambly at all IMO, put a lot of my thought somewhat more eloquently than I tend to so: "hear hear"
