Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Kyokushin Guy, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. Kyokushin Guy

    Kyokushin Guy Valued Member


    Please forgive me that I am not putting this under "Women's Self-Defense", as I feel that it would not get the attention this question warrants. We all have mothers, sisters, wives, and girlfriends that we want to keep safe - and this post is for us this time, rather than for them...

    Hi everyone. I'd like to get your thoughts on a subject I have been thinking on a great deal lately. And that is: Most women who will be sexually assaulted will personally know the one who does it (meaning, the random-attacker kind of rape we see in movies is much the exception to the statistical norm). This person might be a friend, a date, spouse, a boyfriend, etc.

    Given this common 'rule', it colors what my expectations would be and what I believe a woman should be trained for. The expectation which immediately surfaces is that the aggressor (again, think "over eager boyfriend", coworker, casual friend, etc) would either not have a weapon or would not use a weapon to coax compliance out of the victim. And would be within the space of a one to two feet - such as on a sofa or in a car, etc.

    That is my GENERAL expectation and the prescription, for this scenario, that I have come to is that an adequate grasp of grappling fundamentals could be enough to dissuade said assault.

    My questions to you all are these:

    1. Does my assumption about the kind of scenario hold water?
    2. What styles (or advice) would you suggest for the described expectation?

    I realize, of course, that violence is dynamic; and violence towards women, especially with an 'intimate attacker', is a process which begins long before the assault takes place. And my suggestion completely ignores certain factors, such as a sociopath who happens to also be a friend/boyfriend/etc and who who very well may be armed. However, as these are not the commonest occurrences I deliberately left them out and ask that in this discussion, we all do the same.

    Thanks for reading and for your input.
  2. Wastelander

    Wastelander Valued Member

    I will state, first and foremost, that I am no expert and have only done cursory research on this, but most rapists, from what I understand, do it for the sense of power and dominance (and revenge for some perceived slight, in some cases) and so that would lend credit to your theory that they would not use a weapon a majority of the time. Using a weapon doesn't make you feel as powerful as overpowering someone with your own physical strength. That doesn't mean they would NEVER use a weapon to do so--some people DO feel more powerful when using a weapon, after all--but I would tend to agree that most of the time they would not. Your range seems accurate, as well, since rape tends to occur either from an ambush or from an escalating conflict in close proximity to the attacker.

    As for your second question, I believe that grappling arts that teach grips, wrist control and positional grappling (Judo/Sambo/BJJ/etc.) are probably going to teach the most valuable skills available for rape defense. Rape can only work if the attacker can either break your spirit so you stop fighting or successfully restrain you. These arts strengthen the spirit by forcing you to train all of your techniques in high-stress situations against resisting opponents, and all of those techniques work to your benefit against someone trying to restrain you. That isn't to say that other arts don't possess these traits, certainly--some branches of karate, kenpo, silat, Krav Maga (and others) also teach these techniques, and of course MMA training will include these things--but I feel that arts like Judo, Sambo or BJJ will train them more thoroughly than other arts, simply by virtue of specializing in them and having active competitive venues for testing the techniques.
  3. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

  4. Kyokushin Guy

    Kyokushin Guy Valued Member

    Thanks MartialMan. I haven't finished reading even the OP but it's already given quite a bit of valuable info.
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    This is my suggestion;

    I was approached decades ago by a Unniversity to teach women's self defense.

    At that time, there was a unusual rise in rape and violence agianst women.

    I had approached one of my martial arts teachers about this;

    His reply;

    "Go and study domestic violence. Try to learn from police, legal people, social groups dealing with rape & violence, psychologists, etc."

    "Do not assume that because you(I) are a proficient martial artist, that you will be a proficient women's self defense instructor-you(I) need to learn more than what I(he) have taught you."
  6. Kyokushin Guy

    Kyokushin Guy Valued Member

    This is precisely my opinion about my own level "expertise" in this field.

    A little back story: my niece just turned 3 and as she grows the amount of complexity in her life will increase until the day on the playground when someone pops her in the eye. After she crosses that threshold, the potential for violence will be a personal reality for her, forever. And by the time she is of the age where most women are at highest risk for assault I want her to be well trained (if not by me, then by someone better).

    Given my motivation, I have recognized that I am not yet equipped to handle this. Thus, my first step here.
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I can cut a woman's risk of being raped by as much as half with three words.

    "Don't drink alcohol."

    Nothing you can teach in a gym will make half as much difference as being sober, especially when you consider that less than half of rapes are carried out using physical intimidation as a method of control. Over 50% of rape victims had been drinking before they were assaulted.

    Cheques should be made payable to...

    Oh right - my source - Similarities and differences in women's sexual assault experiences based on tactics used by the perpetrator (Abbey, BeShears et al).
  8. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Wow, being teetotal kept me from being raped?

    I can believe it, a lucid person can report you in detail to the police, a drunk person probably can't...

    This is one of the reasons I wish tasers were legal over here. You can't rape 50 000 volts.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  9. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    I'm also conflicted about simply telling women to not drink alcohol, at all, zero.

    I personally don't see the attraction of paying to get vertigo, but I realize for a lot of women it's part of social events. And it seems to go a bit beyond reasonable precautions to tell women to flat out give up something they love.

    Wouldn't it be better to advise women to only drink to get mildly affected and stay lucid/remain aware of their surroundings? Maybe it's just me but I must say there's gotta be solutions other than simply giving up things you like to avoid rapists. I mean, people used to argue to me that I should simply never go out at night...where's the line?
  10. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time

    At the risk of being flamed here, I have a question that has been on my mind for a bit. I don't mean any offense at in the question, and I do offend anyone, I apologize in advance.

    Question: Do the way woman dress and how they choose to dress reflect on the chances of them getting sexually attacked or not? Granted, woman should wear whatever they want, but don't you (generic you) think that sometimes you should lay of the skimpy clothing in some situations?
  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    There's probably a slightly increased chance, but most rapes are carried out by someone the victim knows in environments that wouldn't require being dressed in a particular way.
  12. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    If I was a woman I just simply wouldn't drink around males, at all. its not fair but its a cold hard reality that it will half your chances of being sexually assaulted.
  13. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time


    What about drunken advances by a stranger? I going to assume it would raise the chances (correct me if I'm wrong).
  14. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    kicking a hornets nest.

  15. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Yeesh. That's a complex question and has the right to a complex answer...

    I don't think it's simply about attractiveness. It's about a lot of things including gender roles and a sense of 'entitlement' on the assailant's part. I've personally noticed that wearing loose, androgynous clothing actually attracted MORE sexually based antisocial behaviour, not less. What might that indicate you might ask? I'm going to hazard a guess that it's about entitlement/anger. Rape minded boys/men seem to feel that having women please them is some sort of right they are entitled to and when they don't, and assert themselves as people, it annoys them and they want to put said women in their place.

    Now, there's only one of me. My own experiences are hardly sociological evidence. And butt grabbing/pseudo rape head control grabbing/general groping is not the same as rape. But some research suggests that what rapists and other sex offenders zero in on is not skimpy clothing or other markers of 'sexiness'...it's vulnerability...



    That's right. Women who were likely to be raped actually wore MORE clothes, not less.

    So to answer your question, no, clothes are pretty far down the list. Signs of vulnerability are WAY more important than clothing...
  16. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time

    Thank you Microlamia for the information.
  17. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    That's yet another reason I don't drink. I don't want my vestibular and motor function shot to shreds under ANY circumstances, but especially not when I'm around people who are a) stronger than me and b) might well see me as a sex object they are entitled to.

    Not all males, of course. But I am wary...comes with the territory when you weigh less than 60 kilograms.
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    This was a question in a rape seminar.

    And the answer from victims was not.

    Most of the victims at the seminar were raped while dressed appropriately.

    A rapist chooses the victim from a list of things desirable. And lack of clothes seems to be at the bottom of the list
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Correlation does not equal causation. Most date rapes happen after a date. Many people drink on a date. So a large percentage of victims of date rape had something to drink the evening they were raped. It doesn't mean that skipping wine with dinner is going to prevent your date from date-raping you if he turns out to be a predator.

    To go back to the original question, I can't help but think that BJJ is by far the best art in terms of date-rape defense. Both in terms of the tactics used (grappling, often from a prone position on the ground) and the training methodologies (lots and lots of gritty physical contact with training partners, which helps participants get over the "go into shock and go passive" reaction that most people who grew up in a civilized society have).
  20. Princess Haru

    Princess Haru Valued Member

    I can agree with this (from personal experience!)

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