"Rape is about power, not sex"

I was Just trying to illustrate that I think it's fairly over the top to charge someone for rape considering what happened and what its based on, i've tried to explain why I think that in the next post.

 

I don't think that it should have been established that individual parties can establish protocols between themselves that re define rape in this particular way. ie. ejaculating without consent is treated as penetration without consent. This case being based on a technical wording designed to protect from something else combined with a personal agreement not to ejaculate.

I don't agree that the law should be set that way, particularly something so serious. A breach of a verbal agreement in itself is not breaking the law it depends if that breach is unlawful, I fail to see why this is different for sex. I just can't see ejaculating as a criminal offence. This is only made unlawfal based on a technical wording designed to protect people from being continued to be penetrated when asking for that to stop.

Just because the precident was already established doesn't add to the argument for it. I don't beleive any people should be able to establish this particular agreement between themselves before they get to it and for it to carry weight in a court. Maybe if they have such a thing drawn up and signed by lawyers, like a pre nup, then maybe there is a fair argument for breach of contract here. But just hearing how absurd that sounds should tell you something.

I also don't much like the idea that this guy probably had little idea he would be considered a rapist for ejaculating without consent. It seemed to come as news to other people here too.

So i wonder how many people in the world are now comsidered rapists on this technicality. I'm clean I think, oh no, maybe one time I messed up and the (now) wife took the morning after pill. So yeah, we agreed on withdrawal but it didn't work out, now I'm technically a rapist.

call the cops already

 

It seems this bears repeating:

 

I agree that it's a worse thing to intentionally break an agreement, but I don't think that warrants this charge. but I see the wording you are quoting and it says it appears he willingly removed her choice.

I don't recall words to that effect, other than being based on a statement, being "I'll do what I want". To be honest, if after the event my then girlfriend had said you know what you were bang out of order for coming inside me, I'm going to try and charge you with rape, my reaction might well be "I'll do what I want" EVEN if I had been careless. So to be honest I can't be convinced that it wasn't just being careless based on that quote alone, or whether he was even motivated by having a baby himself. Otherwise I fail to see why he wouldn't just wear a condom, or she insist he wear one: You have to ask why it has to come to this? I would need to base it on more information than a simple statement without context attached to it.

Also I have to add trying to prove something like this was intentional or not seems messy water not worth getting into to get rape charges. Maybe marraige guidence or therapy would be more helpful, in this particular case. I'm assuming this must be good grounds for divorce.

 

I couldn't agree more that the responsibility is on both parties when it comes to the subject matter of ejaculation. Leaving it up to them to also effectively decide if rape laws are technically validated or not, based on a verbal agreement about it, between what could just as easily be strangers seems like "the world gone mad to me" to me.

 

Bye again.

 

That just about sums your attitude and stance on the whole thing up.

 

The Judge said these things happen and no-one would be prosecuted for it.
The Judges conclusion from his quote seems to be he deliberately removed her choice, not accidently.

The bit in red is the bit that got him convicted not the bit in blue. These things happen is for the bit in blue not the bit in red. I expect the Lord Chief Justice knows the law pretty well.

 

From the times,

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/law/article3748059.ece

If you don't have a Times Account
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22281457

 

Bit of context now, hope all you apologists feel good about it.

 

Well as soon as he said that, she should have asked him to stop and if he didn't then that is rape. If that's what happened, then fine, but without that information you acted no better than a witch hunt. It's not even clear if that's what happened from the Times quote either.

At no time have I ever argued that it would be ok if he continued when expressly asked to stop. At no point has this actually been spelt out that this is what happened. If that's so, then I see little difference here to other cases of that, and the whole part about the ejaculation agreement would be irrelevant.

I was simply going by information available and treating it objectively and with common sense. If that makes someone an apologist for ugly things, then you have serious issues mate. this is a discussion forum for giving opinions - I stand by everything I said based on what I knew at the time.

If you have a problem with that, you're nothing but a coward throwing stones behind your screen. Grow up and discuss things without the childish emotion. It seems as though you have been effected by this subject manner in some way, where you were unable to treat the information impartially and on its own merits until more comes to light.

that's not my problem, and neither was your inability to understand the arguments put forward. Now clearly, the specifics of the case will change what I think. That's how it should be. Not hang him first ask questions later. I was asking the questions that I needed to ask, and was giving my opinion on the information available, you seem incapable to accept that. So, maybe your childish emotions are what don't belong in a adult discussion about sensitive issues.

I often am happy to plays devils advocate, that doesn't mean I'm guilty of defending or being an apologist for rape, bullying, domestic violence etc.

If he really raped her, I'm more than happy to see justice done. It's a sad state of affairs when simply questioning something like this, you so easily get tarred as defending things you are very much against.

 

Oh really

It is something that has happened in my relationship - before we got married. Obviously my now wife realised that there was no malice or bad intention to what I did. We both knew what we were doing, we were both adults and It's something that we had done before. I went into it with good intentions, but sometimes you get caught in the "throws of passion" and you fail to keep to the mutual decision to withdraw.

It sometimes happens in a loving healthy relationship. You accept the consequences like grown ups. It was our choice. No one coerced the other into having sex or forced anything.

from that position of a loving, happy, healthy relationship obviously subsequently being accused of rape is a very serious thing to happen and does not match in any way what happened.

I'm aware of this, because it has happened to me. I simply wondered if there was any similarities here. Maybe you have very little idea what a loving, happy and healthy relationship is like, so simply can't relate to the some of the issues and questions that arise over something like this ?

 

That is not something I would ever do. It shows a complete lack of care or respect. The "throws of passion" is a pathetic excuse for a disgusting level of selfishness. I realise some men can't choose when it happens, but unless it's genuinely a physical suprise when it does I can't think of any circumstance that would excuse it.

And we already knew the "I'll do it if I want" quote, I don't see what's changed.

 

That's the difference - no one forced in your case, he didn't just come, he said he was going to do what he wanted and she couldn't stop him, she was forced to continue when the agreement was he would stop.

 

The context in the times and bbc quotes.

If he had time to say all that he had time to withdraw.

 

It's wasn't selfishness, it was weakness and lack of control. I didn't want to do it. If I did, and did it anyway I would say that was selfish on my part, that's not how I acted, I think I know myself better than you, so I'll take your word on being such a paragon of virtue. I only recall it happening once or twice at best, other times I got it out in time. It was an accident caused by being in the moment, everyone can make a mistake, but of course not you, you're perfect. At least I'm honest about it, and have nothing to hide or be ashamed about. Just one of those slips ups people sometimes make, we used to go out and party a fair bit in those days and were often both drunk when we did this. I wouldn't do it on purpose and that's a big difference. Weren't you the one going on about intent. Well my intention was not selfish or to do it, so my conscience is quite clear thanks David. It was a mistake, people make them, get over it.

And get over yourself while you're at it.

 

It's happend to me as well, the guy in the case quoted however, said he was going to do it - BEFORE he shot his load.

 

What I said was how I would feel about myself if I'd done it. I don't accept excuses from myself. This is why I've never done it.

 

It's not something that I did on my own, you need to remember that. We both took the risk willingly at the time and both accepted the risks and any consequences. I'm not giving you an excuse, because I don't need any excusing thanks David for what went on between two consenting adults. I'm giving you an honest explanation.

I'm sure I'm not alone having experienced this with a partner, and sure I wouldn't recommend it. It's not the smartest thing, but then I've done my share of foolish things in life.

Don't expect me to buy that line about that post being all about you either, I'm slightly offended you think I would.