Hello everyone, I have some questions about Ninjutsu and I was wondering if you ladies and gentlemen might be able to help me. I don't know much about Ninjutsu, apart from what I've seen on TV or read about in magazines, or researched on the internet. But I've always been fascinated with Ninjutsu and its so-called secrets. I also like to draw ninjas. I get really confused by Ninjutsu articles and sources though because there just doesn't seem to be a website out there that covers everything. While doing some research on Ninjutsu for one of the journals that I'm writing, I stumbled upon a lot of questions. Like for example, I noticed that there were several different lineages and styles of Ninjutsu, and I was curious about the similarities, connections, differences and distinctions of each style or school. First - The Styles So far I have come across Fuma-ryu, Iga-ryu, Koka-ryu, Tenshi-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Sagami-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu and Kumagakure-ryu, Fujita-ryu and others if you know what I'm talking about. These are the different ninja schools, right? Or styles? What is the difference between each one, or connection, if anyone here knows? I am just curious about the different styles and what they incorporate. Second - The Schools Also, I came across schools like the Bujinkan, the Genbukan, the Jinenkan, the Kuroryukan, the Black Dragon Fighting Society, the Koga Yamabushi Ninpo organization of Frank Dux sometimes called Dux-ryu, and many other organizations by other acclaimed legends. What is the connection between all of these schools, or distinctions between them? Third - The Soke Another question I had was regarding what I guess could be considered Ninjutsu politics. There's a lot of hearsay about historical figures like Frank Dux, Radford Davis, Masaaki Hatsumi, Kingoro Tanaka, Takamatsu and Seigo Fujita and others. Some websites have tried to discredit one individual or another, and each branch claims to be the only legitimate branch of Ninjutsu while claiming that the others are not. I was curious as to why that is, if it's even true, or if there's some secret ninja connection that nobody knows about. Fourth - The Founders The last question I had, before your answers lead to more questions, is regarding the origins and birthplace of Ninjutsu by the so-called founders. I stumbled across several sources that talk about Tang dynasty Chinese origins of Ninjutsu in Japan and figures like Ikai, Kain Doshi, En no Gyoja, Rokkaku, Yi Yin, Zhuan Zhu, Sun Tsu, Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang, Tora, Sojobo and links between Japanese mysticism and Chinese practices or Korean practices, connections between the Lin Kuei of Kwangsi province and the Sulsa knights, the Trulkhors and Kay Zee of Tibet, and the Garuda cult in India, and all different legends and stories about the origin of Ninjutsu that leads me to question and wonder. Who founded Ninjutsu? I apologize in advance for all the questions. By looking at this post, you can probably gather that I have done quite a bit of research on the subject already. I ask that you be patient and thorough with me, as I really am interested in learning all that I can about Ninjutsu and how it functions. Thank you again for your time in reading this. Also, an additional thank you to anyone who provides answers or help with finding the answers I am looking for. Always smiling, ~Obake~
I can't comment on some of the differences and some of the schools/styles may be lost to history. Within the Bujinkan (And other x kans, see below) there are differences between the ryuha in terms of techniques, philosophies, strategies, concepts, weaponry etc. However you may not find these kind of things, especially the nuances between such things as a omote gyaku (Wrist control) from gyokko ryu to an omote gyaku in koto ryu on the internet or even in a book. You need to find a good teacher for that. Lets put this in perspective. Ninjutsu burst onto the scenes in about the early 80s with the Stephen K Hayes books, although Andrew Adams and Quinton Chambers did bring out books before this time. The books that Adams, Chambers and Hayes brought out were about Dr Hatsumi and whilst Chambers book never mentioned anything about Ninjutsu (It was on stick fighting) the other two authors spoke in depth on the ninja art. We then went through a ninja boom, and the word "Ninja" very quickly got taken up by marketting companies (Ninja motorbikes, perfumes even cornflakes). Prior to these books by Hayes and Adams no one had really heard of Ninjutsu let alone was practicing it here in the west apart from a few that had learnt the art prior to this from Dr Hatsumi i.e. a small group in Sweden, some guys under Doron Navon in Israel, a few in the US and that was about it. But whats signficant is they all came from the stable of Dr Hatsumi in Japan and his students i.e.Ishizuka who spent time in Sweden. After the ninja boom however Ninja were popping up everywhere. In fact there was a ninja master in nearly every state in the USA and a few here in the UK. All when challenged could not produce a lineage, connection with a Japanese teacher, scrolls, techniques that bore any relation to anything we would consider authentic for the time period, and most could not even speak Japanese or even prove they had been to Japan. Everything was hearsay and any talk of their teacher was met with "I never got a photo of my teacher as he didnt believe in photos" or "I was going to receive the scrolls but my teacher died the day he was going to give them to me" Dr Hatsumi is (And I will say this again "IS) the only one who we have evidence of a teacher for including photos, video footage of training, and co-oberating evidence that his teacher (Toshitsugu Takamatsu) was a grandmaster of a number of schools. Hatsumi sensei also has the scrolls, lineages and of course being Japanese can speak the language. Needless to say other schools such as Genbukan, Jinenkan whose teachers were students of Hatsumi Sensei and have received Menkyo Kaiden (Full transmission of the schools) are also legit. AS for the other names you mentioned I would suggest you join the facebook page "******** Martial Arts" (Really hope I dont get censored here for saying that) as they are really good at exposing the frauds. See above Who knows? But I would forget all the stories of Lin Kuei and sulsa, trulkors and Garuda Cults. Ninjutsu although influenced by Chinese mystics, and books like Sonshi is purely a Japanese phenomena. Where are you? maybe we can direct you to a good teacher.
I fact this is all you need to watch. See if any other teachers has such evidence of his teachings on ninjutsu... [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twzsCF7gi0o"]Hatsumi Masaaki - Saigo No Jissen Ninja Takamatsu Toshitsugu - YouTube[/ame]
First of all, is very pleasant to see people interested in the art. I share with you what I discovered so far. The base of the art is the compassive heart (fudoshin). And I feel it very true, to stay compassive means not to think, but feel with the mind serving your feelings, everytime. Then all your powers and knowledge will work, but when the ego (thoughts) gets control, then you loose sight, so in a nutshell that is the internal fight you have to master to preserve your abilities. About your interest in different areas, Ninjutsu has Mikkyo as spiritual development tool, personally I started to meditate and experiment with it, and I found it fascinating. You can start looking the aura of a candle, touch it, and start sensing your body how it reacts in different states of the mind, apart from other things. Is so much more that physical combat schools, about destroying or creating hell in other people (although you learn to do it), the compassive heart aids in controlling those internal killing instincts and desires of cutting flesh or using people as cannon fodders or servants, or being greedy, is a life path. If you are going to start training, find a good instructor, in Bujinkan the best are Soke himself (Hatsumi) or the Dai Shihans (the most recognized after Soke), or Shihans. Trust in them and do your best. Here is the main Bujinkan site: http://bujinkan.com/ Hope that my opinion was useful to you. Good luck!
Thank you Garth and Jclevien for that useful information. I suspected that the Takamatsu/Hatsumi lineage was probably the most legitimate. From the internet, they look like they know what they are doing, and they seem to have the authority to speak about it, unlike some of the other schools I've come across. However, there is one other person whose name has struck an interest. I believe his name is Fujita Seiko? In one article I looked at, Toshitsugu Takamatsu is referred to as "the last shinobi" by Bujinkan instructor Wolfgang Ettig. However, there is another lineage I also found somewhat interesting. Jinichi Kawakami from the Iga-ryu Ninja Museum or Banke Shinobinoden appears to have a different style or tradition. Donn Draeger referred to Fujita Seiko as "the last living ninja" which seems to contradict what Ettig said. Both schools teach Iga-ryu/Koga-ryu Ninjutsu, but they do not seem to be affiliated at all. How is this possible, and what is the connection or distinction between them? Banke Shinobinoden seems legit, at least moreso than all of the other schools besides the Bujinkan, so what is the difference between them that those seeking a path of ninjutsu should know? ~Obake~
Thank you Kevin G, I will look into it. I'm not familiar with Kacem though. What is the name of the book in question? Also, I wasn't able to watch the video that you posted Garth, because this computer does not have Adobe Flash activated. It's not my computer, so I don't want to download anything or activate anything. But I did visit the link in your signature (www.bujinkan-kouryuu.com) and I like the layout of it. What is that symbol in the circle on the home page? Those characters I'm assuming are Japanese, is that the logo for the Bujinkan? On that site it says the training includes: koshijutsu koppojutsu jutaijutsu dakentaijutsu happo bikenjutsu ninjutsu I noticed that ninjutsu is listed last, as if it is something completely unique and different from the other styles taught at the Bujinkan, is this true? If so, what is the difference between the ninjutsu styles taught at the Bujinkan, as opposed to the other styles like koppojutsu or koshijutsu?
Hi Obake, first off I am no ninjutsu expert by any means, but I do deal in history and anthropology. Of all the individuals you mentioned, not all are historical figures in the academic sense. Someone doesn't meet that criteria simply by running a successful business or writing a book on any subject. I find it hard to believe Frank Dux for instance will be remembered in the historical record as a major figure in Ninjutsu, because as time passes I don't believe additional substantial evidence will ever be produced (which isn't typically the case with real historical figures or relics, where new material can always be found...see the Dead Sea Scrolls). Now if tomorrow some real objective evidence that Frank Dux is the heir to a ninja grandmaster is produced, then maybe history will turn out differently, but if I had any money to bet it would be on Frank Dux remaining a guy who told a tale that got turned into a great movie, and that's it. Likewise with Mr. Hatsumi, his claims are also very controversial so as the years pass, history may not record him as a "Ninja" in the same regard as say Seiko Fujita. Who knows! Maybe someday Kacem will find a 'missing link' and everyone will fall down laughing at the simplicity of it all. Maybe a few generations from now his school will be a memory. Rather than follow the "hearsay", I suggest you view the problem like a simple triple balance beam, where each verifiable fact adds some weight. You need to verify each and every fact before placing it on the beam, as opposed to throwing it all on there and then trying to take off what might not be true, which leads to the mess many people face. Without splitting hairs or making claims, unfortunately there is very little evidence out there supporting anyone's claims, even if any part of it is true, it can't be strongly defended in an objective way. There is no one really whose beam is heavily weighed. In the absence of real weight, the hearsay not only flourishes, it can't readily be countered. Frank Dux may be a ninja grandmaster, he may not be, but he can't prove it very well. Mr. Hatsumi has a big school but not a lot of support from outside it for his own claims. Most of the people who might have had some real evidence of a connection to Ninjutsu are dead, which makes everyone miserable (I know I have read their lamentations here ) Oh, if only more people were interested in the archaeology of the martial arts, they'd be digging in new places and we'd find new things. I try to remind myself often that most of the answers we're 'digging for' literally have not been dug up yet. So it goes for dinosaur bones and mummies and tombs and everything else. What awesome relics of Ninjutsu are waiting out there to be discovered? Whoa Brother you just covered a lot of territory there, I suggest this don't get too lost in your search for the 'origins' of things or the connections, or you'll spend your whole life on it unless of course it's your life's work. The very name of Japan comes from Chinese, and so does almost everything else until the modern age. But it works in the other direction too. Things travel from Japan to China, as silly as it may seem One of those things that travels are myth and legend and hearsay about famous people like Musashi. You even listed a video game ninja sect, see how easily it mixes in with the verifiable historical figures? There are no 'Lin Kuei' as far as I've ever been able to verify, but if you can correct me on that I will bow to you sir. Again, you have to start over if you ever hope to truly get to what is fact or fiction. And stay inside the borders of Japan, where it is hard enough to find good historical material on the subject. A helpful place to start are the myths and legends of Japan as originally recorded before Ninjas became a pop culture phenomenon. I find it helps to go 'back in time' before the advent of something famous, in order to better understand how it might be 'reported' later on. http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Japan-Hadland-Davis/dp/1502827115
Brother I respectfully disagree. The good doctor doesn't clear up the history as much as provide some theory and perspective based on factual evidence. It's really important to point out that even if we assume his methods are objective, he has a conflict of interest which can affect any sort of reporting on a subject be it journalism, history, antho, and so forth. I am not saying his books and videos are not fascinating, but quite frankly, it has not been peer reviewed. Some of the facts and historical bits within it certainly are validated, others are not. I think that is part of the allure and mystery of Ninjutsu that makes it a fascinating subject. But I caution suggesting any book "clears up history". It's really the process behind the book. For Kacem's work, I'd have to argue it's too early to tell if it will stand up to long-term scrutiny. It hasn't really been a subject of interest outside the communities that have produced a lot of the 'evidence', which is unfortunate from a scholastic point of view. When hobbyists have challenges verifying historical accuracy of anything, the scholars have not been doing their job properly in my opinion
E. T. C. Werner's book on Chinese fable is another classic. It is not some Holy Grail of Chinese/Ninjutsu-lore or anything but the stories and major themes of these tales co-relate in interesting ways. "Military Door Gods" indeed, that is quite a list of martial art personalities. I'll bet it takes a real Ninja to surpass such a foe. ;D Sorry I'm getting off topic so I apologize but to sum it all up, learning the mythology and early history of either Japan or China puts you in a better position to fairly analyze the martial arts materials that claim to hail from them. Many martial arts tales and claims out there fail the sniff tests fairly quickly. Others are more permeating as if maybe there is a lingering chance of being validated (which can happen all of a sudden). There's no question a lot of traditional Japanese art is currently taught in some of these organizations, but there's also a lot of doubt. Time is really what will judge a lot of the things we think we know today (both academically and colloquially). I think if anyone is a real 'Ninja' anyway, their art forms would of course better endure for all time (it's right in the name!). So, we'll see. The meaning of "shinobi" changed quite a bit from the first millennium to the second, and but it was always associated with perseverance, endurance and so forth from the very beginning of Japanese civilization. http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-China-E-Werner/dp/0486280926
Awesome, thank you. I wasn't familiar with Kacem or E.T.C. Werner. I will definitely have to look into it.
Obake posted Yes I put it last for the simple reason to show that "Ninjutsu" is not the only thing we do. There are several Ryu Ha in the Bujinkan and not all are strictly Ninjutsu but may include elements of Ninjutsu in them. Also I guess one could say that in some respects Ninjutsu is the highest form. I would like to say "This is ninjutsu and this isnt ninjutsu" but its not as easy as that. Its really not a black and white answer. For example the Togakure ryu in its sylabus contains a lot of escapes, use of shuriken, blinding powder, use of shuko, climbing walls and strategies etc, but it doesnt mean that the other schools i.e. Gyokko ryu which specialise in the use of koshijutsu do not contain ninjutsu. In fact Gyokko ryu is often referered to as a school of Ninjutsu but its not called a ninjutsu school i.e. has the word "Ninjutsu" as a suffix in most instances. This is the problem, on one hand most people see ninjutsu as guys running around in black suits and masks with swords strapped to their backs, and the other arts as related to the samurai wearing armour. But the lines are blurred. The best way to thing about this is that many ninja were samurai, and some samurai were ninja, Additionally you might think that the ninjutsu bit was a speciality that was given to warriors when... A/ They had completed sufficient training in another ryu ha B/ They needed the techniques to perform a clandestine mission. All armies need spies and if you like for want of a better word "Special Forces" so like today the special forces are soldiers who have mastered the basic training and served years in their regiments and then go on to learn more advanced techniques to raise them to special forces. You can see Ninjutsu as these advanced techniques designed for a specific role. However I would warn you against anyone who claims to teach ninjutsu, runs around in a mask, and yet does not have a solid foundation in other ryu ha. In essence it would be like being taught the secret skills of the SAS.SEALS etc without knowing how to fire a pistol.
Nice thread, just remember that eventually when trying to decipher who is and is not a "Ninja" conversations eventually end up like this: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjMZBNeFAUI"]"He is no ninja!" - YouTube[/ame]
Iron Fist, I always enjoy conversation with / from you about martial art history. Because of the internet, technology has finally caught fiction, fable, or hearsay and holding it to actual reality and/or factual data Indeed, I have many martial art books and magazines, (all totaling in the hundreds) since the 60's long before the internet, which the information contain within those, had finally seemed to be challenged by actual reality and/or factual data In other words, those periodicals seem to be outdated and regurgitated information until technology caught up with them (i.e. Shaolin) As for Ninjutsu, because it was a secret society of assassins / assassination, how could there exist definitive, detail, and accurate written documentation. (This is the same with Shaolin) Hatsumi, along with Hayes, Kacem, and Ishizuka, seem to try, at best, keep "some" factual data. In one of my periodicals, Hatsumi did produce his scrolls, but he no longer display those. I do not know if it is because they are old, and he does not want them to get damaged from constant handling, or he feels he no longer is in need to "prove" himself. Or other reason(s) As for modern technology, it seems to make all martial arts questionable and tries to hold them all accountable. Upon lineage, no matter if it lacks some factual data, at least there is a "reasonable trace". If martial arts are to evolve in each passing era, shall a martial be held accountable to its lineage or its proven applications?
Hey brother, I think it's just a matter of separating the study of the veracity of something, as opposed to the martial arts themselves (the training and fightin') We can't rely on martial artists to be our martial arts historians ONLY, but many do and I think for eons, martial artists have in a way held the history in a 'captive' sense. People generally allowed them to run with it. Scholarship is in an infantile stage really, today, even historians outside the martial arts have said as much. Of course there are people like Kacem who do both and have a credibility others don't (biases notwithstanding), but unfortunately the burdens of proof (or at least, strong confidence) still require more. Otherwise, we have to mark every claim with a * and disclaim that we really don't know for sure. So we shouldn't say "he's the last Ninja" or "no, he's the Last Ninja". Nobody knows for sure, so just assume none of them are, but one of them might be. In my world brother that is Sasquatch Territory There are plenty of places in the martial arts we don't have to worry about this uncertainty. Certain individuals are without doubt key figures in their respective arts like Judo and so forth. But with some, and certainly with all of Ninjutsu, there is enough doubt to cloud the issue (possibly indefinitely, but possibly not). And so if we assume those clouds persist, so will future generations perceptions. But there's no reason to believe it can't or won't clarify. The work goes on, and as you put it, the world knows more about the Shaolin today than all of China did 200 years ago. We can thank the archaeologists and anthropologists for that, not the Shaolin clergy or the People's Republic of China. You just mentioned in my opinion several people who have gone to varying degrees of scholastic effort on the subject. Their love of the art has driven them to research and of course brother it raises the question what were their methods, are they making any 'leaps of faith', and so forth. It really comes down to the sincerity of each to get to the bottom of things and I'd argue that things like business initiatives can distract from that. Writing books is not necessarily uncovering new facts or fixing old mistakes, there's nothing scientific about it. For that you need to do a lot of reading or field work. In order for you to trust what you read, there need to be citations, and those citations have to check out. Sometimes there are dead ends, and this situation seems to really apply to Ninjutsu, and again brother my position is very simple, that just means the future will help us understand it better. IF we can DNA analyze dinosaurs, we can eventually find out more about the Ninja. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but it's logical, 'secret societies' or no. Some lineages, even 'secret' ones are far more clear than others. Look at the Freemasons! Once upon a time there were quite a few historical individuals part of secret societies that today, are well understood and 'mapped' to a significant degree. What causes this was the scholarly interest in the subject from without and so today we know much about Freemasons (even if they still have some secrets kept). I'd argue the Ninja are only different on the surface, their underworld if you want to call it that is still in the process of exposition. In the martial arts world there's little consequence for assuming a position on the history of something and being wrong (unless you are scammed of course). A single uncited or poorly validated 'fact' that gets checked by the proper authorities can destroy an academic position on anything, whoa to the student who discovers one during dissertation!!!!!!!
Iron, Care to elaborate more on this: If martial arts are to evolve in each passing era, shall a martial be held accountable to its lineage or its proven applications? I am sincerely interested what you have to say
Lineage is simply a mark of authenticity, it may or may not indicate a certain degree of efficacy or indicate certain traits and combative approach. That's it really. You can still develop and shape a system and its techniques for whatever purpose you wish, you can make innovation and functionality a prime aspect but that doesn't mean you have to stray away from the art's roots or those of your teachers. Many might choose to do so and as a result you get an off shoot but it's not a requirement. The crux of the issue is whether the person doing this actually has the knowledge and experience necessary to develop an art and stay true to its core. The only other time you would encounter a problem would be if you want to maintain certain historical aspects of the system but even then as long as you know it in your bones you can still focus on functionality and stay true to the roots of the system.
