Questioning The Grading systems place in Judo

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Gripfighter, Nov 19, 2010.

  1. Cuong Nhu

    Cuong Nhu Valued Member

    Obviously exceptions exist, but my point is that the majority would take an unnecessarily long amount of time to get an effective lock in.
    It also occurs to me that (atleast here) putting someone in an armlock, and then breaking their arm would be illegal. A friend of mine who works in corrections has said that putting someone in a joint lock would render them immobile, and attacking any further would be excess force.

    I'm about to get into a tirade about how much I hate the rules used in basically every fighting sport, so I'll just say 'I agree with alot of what you say' and leave it at that. My comments about anything else will be left for a different, more appropriate thread.

    That's the way it is in Judo, but Rocket3 implied that he wanted to place emphasis on Newaza. The easiest way to do is to get rid the Ippon rule. This, however, would basically turn Judo into BJJ.
  2. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    A lot of variables but I would agree, same as I would agree getting in a perfect judo throw is a lot harder in a real fight. Same problem with every grappling art.

    Fair enough

    I wouldn't say it was getting rid of ippon so much as not stnading it back up pracitcally immediately after a failed throw
  3. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    no I didn't lol. I want it to have a fair amount of representation in judo more so than it has just know and I am not the only one, but I never said it should have priority over throwing.
  4. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Actually I remember being informed on another thread that locks are better in SD situations as they look a lot nicer than striking on cctv and would definately be less aggressive than hip throwing someone onto concrete with the implied risk of spiking their head or causing spinal injury. Also there's no rule saying you must break their arm and that wouldn't be my first port of call I would prefer to hold it at breaking point without going beyond that, you'd be suprised how effective pain compliance can be.
  5. righty

    righty Valued Member

    In addition to this I'd just like to say that there has been a lot of discussion on the fact that skill does not equal teaching skill. Just because a black belt (or other arbitrary grade) is a high grade, does not mean they have any skill at teaching or passing on that skill and knowledge.

    Also, regarding Judo and using competition as a yardstick for grading. In reality the best Judo competition fighter will only have 5 (normally less but I'll use this for now) go to throws that really work for them in competition. That's not many. And the throws that do work are tweaked for them specifically.

    Now someone could be world champion and only be able to do those 5 throws really well. They'll know other throws because they have to counter them but that doesn't mean they are any good at performing them.

    So firstly, if this world champion was now teaching, they may only be able to properly teach their 5 throws. And these 5 throws are going to be the best choice for all their students due to body type and differences in how the teacher performs them etc. So while this champion may be very highly graded, how effective a teacher do you think they are going to be?

    Secondly, realistically not all the throws in Judo are percentage throws when you look at competition usage. Does that mean they should simply be removed from the syllabus or just simply not learn them? The throws that regularly work in competition have been the same throws for decades now, yet the other throws are still taught and learned. If the competition rules effected the syllabus so much (as some people seem to be saying) then the much lower percentage throws would not be taught or perhaps be removed from the syllabus.

    The same here goes for newaza - just because it's restricted in competition, does that mean we should not learn it? My club spends at least 50% of time on newaza and an old thread around here was saying that a lot of clubs were similar. Sure, if you get into a very sport oriented club or special training for representative teams, it will be different, but this is at the basic club level, where most Judoka fit.

    And finally to rocket3. You keep saying now that your original post was only there to start a reasonable discussion. Yet you continue to personally insult anyone who's opinion disagrees with yours. That's not exactly conducive to your stated goal.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  6. Cuong Nhu

    Cuong Nhu Valued Member

    As far as I'm aware, that's mostly up to the referee, as opposed to the rules themselves. The problem could then be fixed by re-training refs.

    That's true. But, but I know few people who don't have experience in Aikido who can pull off a lock while standing with any degree of ease.

    I have experience in Judo and Aikido, I'm aware. And I was still under the assumption of the person in the lock having friends show up. I was told that if I was attacked by one person, and put them in a wrist lock they would be considered immobile, and breaking their wrist to fight off his friends would be considered excess force under some interpretations of local law.

    Also, if I do post my complaints with most competition rules, I'll PM you, or post a link in this thread, since it seems like the two of us atleast would be able to have an interesting discussion about the matter.
  7. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Can't argue with that but its not so easy to do in practice

    I did a couple in school scraps can't say in a proper street fight.

    Sorry I wasn't trying to be condescending.

    I imagine it would but I wasn't thinking multimple attackers since that thought process with me mostly leads to "I'm screwed". I think any grappling art unless you're insane at it is bad for multiple attackers.

    Could be interesting I tend to have something to moan about with comp rules for every art
  8. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    And just to show the opposite of this I'd like to state that I've been fortunate to train under some Scottish Olympic and Commonwealth players (we're talking Gold and Silver medal winners) who WERE good coaches. It clearly showed that they had thought about their game and how to achieve what they wanted to. Mark Preston of Edinburgh was one of my favorite coaches as he would teach 'strings' of Judo (grip fight -> secure grip -> kuzushi -> throw -> transistion -> pin/submission) and how these strings could interact with each other.
  9. Cuong Nhu

    Cuong Nhu Valued Member

    My Marine nature is telling me to do it something like this:
    "You will be doing this way for now. Have a complaint with that? Demoted 4 ranks. Don't want to listen, and do the old way? You're out of the style. Have a nice day"

    Didn't figure you were ^.^

    There are plenty of good ways to deal with multiple attackers using grappling. For instance, throwing Attacker A into Attacker B. Aikido also has a handful of techniques that are intended to be used against multiple attackers also.

    It seems like about 50% of really good competitors are really good teachers. The rest are varying degrees of crap.
  10. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    What a hugely frustrating thread. The answers to those questions were;
    2 weeks.
    Twice in total.

    Just a few points based on what has been said in the thread subsequently;

    The pin in judo reflects the historical origins of ju jutsu, restraining and controlling someone on the battlefield meant you could finish them with a knife etc. If you really have to look at everything from a BJJ perspective, being able to pin anyone (or especially a judoka) is an excellent base from which to setup submissions, even in bjj the hierarchy is position then submission. Perhaps that is why it's worth learning a little history and background to what you are studying, it actually gives some insight.

    A black belt in judo signifies competency, not expertise. When I got mine my 7th Dan coach simply said 'well done, now I can really start teaching you.' There is no way I would feel qualified to give out grades.

    As for the 'money grabbing' aspect, I am just about to do my UKCC level 2 coaching courses. These were introduced across all Olympic sports to promote professionalism and standards in coaching. Apart from having to know technique the syllabus includes modules on planning, implementing and evaluating sessions, ethics, child protection and diversity, first aid etc. Get up to level four and it is a degree level qualification. I also get funding to do that from the Premier League for Sport, no ones grabbing money from me.

    As far as grading goes, I think for kyu grades in judo you pay the BJA £5 for their admin, and to get your licence verified etc. The standards and professionalism involved actually make judo one of the most credible arts out there, the fact that there are those standards also means that if you have a black belt (or any grade) in the UK it is recognised anywhere else in the world and that the public already know exactly what they will get for their money.

    A fiver a grade is money grabbing? Most BJJ classes cost two to three times the amount of a judo session and if you grade in BJJ it will often be at a seminar you will have paid for. That is no citicism of BJJ, because I love that as well, if someone has a product people want charge what you like, but no one makes lots of money from judo.

    As for the constant, oh pins are no use, turtling is rubbish criticism based on knowledge gained from a BJJ rules set; it's as ridiculous as criticising pulling guard or trying x guard, spider guard from a judo point of view. Judo and BJJ come from the same thing, it's the rule sets and strategy that make them different. The answer? Do both with an open mind and you'll be far more effective.
  11. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    actually about a year p.s kiss my ass
  12. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    Wow, a whole year. Have a black belt from me then. Feel good?
  13. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    haha I never claimed to be an expert so why would I be asking for a black belt ? ********.
  14. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    Never claimed a black belt was for an expert. You really didn't have to tell me you weren't an expert, kind of gathered that.... Have whatever grade you like, saves earning it. If anyone questions where you got it just say some bloke off a forum gave it to you, not like standards/credibility etc matter.
  15. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    em aye.... your funny as mate :rolleyes: listen if you have anything remotely constructive to contribute like you did in your first post please go ahead, if however your going to continue to be a


    do us a favor and adress somone else I cant be doing with it, cheers :cool:
  16. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    Thanks for the advice on ettiquette after telling me to kiss my ass and then adressing a post to me. Obviously we have different ideas on what is constructive. Your attitude says a lot about why you aren't progressing.
  17. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    I told you to kiss my ass after you made a completely unfounded statement about my training in a self righteous manner, that to me is a negative attitude. not at the rest of the post which I would consider to be simply part of this discussion. not progressing at what exactly, Judo ? I don't remember saying I wasn't, or even that I started this thread to talk about my own experience with grading in Judo, in fact I am pretty sure I said explicitly that wasn't the reason.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  18. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    I never insulted you because of your opinion I retorted , and not with a personal insult I might add, after you (followed by two or three others ill admit) accused me of creating this thread to have nothing but a "whinge" and of having a bad attitude towards tradition, well don't dish it out if you cant take it.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  19. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    I made a statement about you training in a self righteous manner? Really? Missed that one. I had a guess at answering someone else's questions based on the level of knowledge displayed, feel free to refute that. It's not like I'm the first person in this thread to get this kind of reaction from you.

    This is from your post;

    'someone who really should be a 5th kyu I can't help but feel frustrated at having to put a belt on every week that doesn't represent my skill level simply because I cant find the time or interest to learn the Japanese names for techniques'

    That indicates someone who is not making the progress they think they deserve. Fair enough if that wasn't you, just apply what i've said to your hypothetical friend :rolleyes:

    If you/hypothetical aquaintance want 5th kyu just put a little work in it's not that hard!

    Why on earth BJJ was brought into this discussion I don't know either. Yes it's more informal, but to get graded in BJJ anyone would have put far more time effort and money into what they need to grade than someone going for a judo 5th kyu.
  20. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    I simply meant I have reached the skill level necessary to be a 5th kyu not that I was struggling to be one, I simply haven't had the time to learn my theory, as I said repeatedly I wasn't complaining about that either or starting this thread to talk about myself at all.

    mate your about as funny as a weekend in Gaza.

    because it was the comparison I was using for the bases of a discussion on the judo grading system as it is in my opinion a more practical way of doing things I did not say I was right and everyone else wrong. I mean imagine, the expression of opinion ? discussion ? ON A MARTIAL ARTS FORUM :eek: how dare I.

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