Why you gotta go getting all reasonable and stuff. Damn, as if it aint already hard enough being an antagonist on the internet.
reasonable Sorry being reasonable and using the King's English is a bit uncalled for. How about this: You all succkkkkk :woo:LOlllzzzzz :Alien:WTF RAOFLMAO trollllzzzzz keyboard warrior Lollllllzzzzzz:love::yeleyes::heart: There we go, I feel better now. Now if you'll excuse me, I have white belts to disembowel.
I've trained with Terry two or three times - there are things he does that I like and things he does that I don't like... Big deal - I could say that for loads of instructors, including my own Karate Sensei who I have trained with for over twenty years - I do agree with the idea that until you go along and get on the mat with someone, you have a very poor base to make decisions on. Video is often highly misleading.
Self defence does not equal "jutsu" nor does sport equal "do". Have to agree with Gary on the use of terminology. It ain't koryu and it's not about being bogged down with terms it simply helps to be accurate.
A few points to address the original question and perhaps to clarify what I think may be some subsequent misunderstandings... I first trained with Terry Wingrove in about 2005 or 2006. I've trained with him a few times a year since then. So I'm by no means an 'inner student' but I've attended enough sessions to get the general gist. The first time I trained with Terry Wingrove was without doubt the most painful day's training I've ever experienced. I'd been given to believe that it would be very painful and that certainly proved to be the case. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was left with some interesting welts and superficial bruising, but no injury. Since then I've been on the end of his techniques a number of times. If anything, in the time I've trained with him I think he's become a little gentler with his techniques, maybe deliberately to tone the pain down a bit to appeal to a wider audience, or maybe on a personal note he knows that I know how much pain that he can cause me so there's no great need to prove it. But make no mistake - it still hurts a great deal when he gets his hands on me. I've been on the receiving end of grabs, joint-locks, chokes and a few impacts. But I've never felt in danger and I've never received a real or lasting injury. His skill is consummate and he has an acute understanding of how far to take say, a lock, without causing injury. Experience has taught me to trust him in this implicitly. I'd recommend training with Terry Wingrove to anyone, without concern about injury. There will be pain though, that's a given. I'm not a masochist, but I believe it is necessary to feel the pain of his techniques in order to even stand a chance of replicating them yourself. The nice thing is that the pain stops almost immediately you're released from the technique, it switches on and it switches off. I think there may be a misconception about 'knocking out a white belt'. In my experience he only demonstrates impact techniques on his own long term students, and even then with careful control. He doesn't advocate causing unconsciousness on a regular basis. Indeed, I've not seen him knock anyone completely out in the flesh, although I have certainly witnessed (and experienced) reduced levels of consciousness - again I reiterate, in his own long term students. If the video mentioned is the one I think it is, the 'white belt' is actually quite a long term student of Terry Wingrove. I believe it takes about 10 years to get to Shodan under him, so the white belt in question had actually been training for a few years and was a willing participant. Further, any altered levels of consciousness that I've seen have not been caused by anything as blunt a tool as a headbutt to the nose (not knocking the value in that technique) but have been more neurological in nature. In other words there was no attendant gross physical damage such as a headbutt would cause. Bassai, Moosey (and anyone else), go train with him. You won't be knocked out and you won't be on the end of any cheap shots. You may or may not like everything he does but I'd be extremely surprised if you didn't learn something you consider of value. Mike
JUST A TEDDY BEAR I was drawn to this thread by many of you and i would like to say from the start I totally agree that "one hat does not fit everyone" and the JUTSU I teach maybe considered extreme or not suitable to civilian training. On the other hand you can take the horse to water but cannot make it drink. I find that I have never been busier with requests to teach courses all over the world and I find in m 70th year I enjoy it re than ever. I would like to put some facts before you: In the 41 years i have been teaching JUTSU we have NEVER had a serious accident as I do teach all the safety rules at the start of EVERY course. Unconsciousness is NOT a good state to be in at anytime and you have to understand and see the KO's in the context of many lessons and only very occassionally will I KO a student. The white belt on the You Tube is actually a dan grade in JuJitsu with his own clubs and wears the white belt on the JUTSU courses, plus you will note he is a very strong and fit specimen. I do NOT teach for money and ALL proceeds from ALL courses goes to pre-nominated charities. I emphasise on all my courses that the only thing that matters is what I can do on the mat NOW not what I did 50 years ago or what belt or certificate I may have. Respect is earned not demanded.
Actually, I'm going to just lay out it out there - having seen some of the videos I'd say that if I was at SENI and this old man smacked me like that, I'd tear him a new bumhole and no mistake. secondly, I'd say that his students look to me like they're over-exaggerating the effectiveness of the guys strikes. thirdly, this guy, from my outside point of view seems to have a very loyal cultish type following. Indeed, given there are so many people with join dates this month and zero post counts all of a sudden cropping up on this thread, have the admins made sure there's no double account people on here? and last but not least, when I'm back in glasgow, I'm open to challenges from these guys :-D
Is this the gentleman in question? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xR7VGi02c&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - Terry Wingrove‏[/ame] If so could someone please point out what the flip is going on with the sword work around the 1:30 mark? Also I take it Momotaro is Mr Wingrove?
I have had Terry come to my club to give a seminar 2-3 times a year ever since the mid 90s. My students rave about Terry's courses and want him back. I have never known him to give a cheap shot or injure anyone. Yes he sometimes causes pain, but that is because he is sometimes illustrating how to control people with pain. The effect would not be believable if one did not experience it oneself. I am not a masochist, but I do want to know techniques work, and not because someone judges it to be pretty. Most people seeing what Terry does for the first time think the recipient must be acting, and many of my students want to feel the technique work. I have often been hit so lightly by Terry I have been amazed he knew just the right moment, direction and location to take me to the ground with the lightest touch - he is impressive not because he muscles a technique but because he doesn't. I have learnt some of my most valuable self defence knowledge from Terry's courses. If you are at all interested in self defence, I would not hesitate to recommend you try one. We do mainly MMA type training in my club and find Terry's approach just what we need to fill the gaps. best Zoltan
Ya ya ya ya ya everyone and their granny does "MMA type training" these days. Apparently. About 5% of them actually do.
If you are in the neighbourhood, this is my club: http://www.ussu.net/IMA/ I mentioned "MMA type training" not to be macho - which is not the atmosphere of the club - but to indicate I am not some sort of religious follower of Terry, i.e. I was not posting to support an organisation or style to which I belonged. My club aims to use mainly MMA methodology to support self defence training, but we draw on other influences as well (e.g. what is banned in UFC is therefore presumably useful for self defence and Terry is a master of these things!). best Zoltan
Hi Folks I'll add my voice to the list of people saying that you should try a session with Sensei Wingrove. Truthfully, it's not for everyone. I think if you are into aerobics and scoring points then you will not be satisfied. I think if you love Karate, it's history, and finding out what some of our techniques used to be like before they were "cleaned up" then he's exactly what you are looking for. I hope you'll take my comments in an open way. Mr Wingrove certainly doesn't need me to stand up for him, he's quite capable of that on his own. But you can't blame someone for saying what they think from an informed perspective as I have known him for a few years now and although I don't get to see him every week I enjoy every session. With regards to the "pain" issue I think Simon Keegan said it best a few pages ago.
Frankly, I can understand why you say that. I would have found it difficult to believe how much pain he can cause if I hadn't experienced it for myself. That's one reason why it is important to feel the pain in his techniques for yourself. Without that experience I don't think you can fully understand the technique. I can only speak for myself. I'm no-one's lacky and no-one's lapdog. I train with various teachers primarily because I think they have something of value to teach (but they also have to be good people with an attitude towards others and towards training that I respect). Mr Wingrove certainly fits that bill. I can only see 2 new posters on this thread, one is Mr Wingrove himself, the other is Zoltan Dienes. I can confirm that they are both real and not the same person. You've made a pretty weak argument there. Thanks, although I don't personally feel the need to challenge you or anyone else. I'm content with my choice of instructor(s), I hope you are with yours but that's your choice not mine. Mike
Going solely on the youtube clip(s) - he's not my cup-of-tea. I enjoyed a good amount of contact during my training (Daigaku Goju), but having someone 'showing off' their strikes on compliant assistants is downright stupidity. Old school or not, this type of nonsense demonstrating has no place in the Gym or Dojo. Each to their own, but Terry Wingrove has nothing of interest for me.
Mike F - thanks for responding - I remember you saying when I visited your club that you took your students to train with Mr Wingrove every now and then, so I was hoping you'd post. Momotaro - nice of you to respond directly to the questions - very much appreciate having information straight from the horse's mouth. Master Betty - I think you're misconstruing what Mr Wingrove does. He's not a George Dillman type figure who is of "controversial" renown with chi-knockouts etc. There's little doubt about his skill or credentials or ability to grab people where it really hurts - I don't think he needs to get trained students to "sell" his techniques.
Looks to me like Terry's illustrating the third plane of attack, and showing it by having the attacker wield a bokken. Quite often Sensei Wingrove will talk about how some of the armour-wearing samurai would move differently to those who can move more freely. But in essence this is all about evasion and taking the initiative.
So why start from an unrealistic distance and use somebody who appears to not really know how to wield the weapon? The attack was shockingly poor and the response would be hard to pull off against and committed attack by a half competent assailant. It was poor all round to be honest.
RE Terry Sensei. You cannot become a good Chef unless you are prepared to taste the food you are serving up. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not reading about it, not watching it.
