Question About Kara-ho Kempo

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by SATOKAN, Apr 1, 2005.


    SATOKAN Valued Member

    I read an article many years ago in Inside Kung-fu about kara-ho kempo showcasing Grandmaster Sam Kuoha and it mentioned a '5-animal' subsystem within the curriculum and said that Grandmaster William Chow was a master of the 'scorpion' style. However, in recent years, I have not heard any further mention of the animal system in articles concerning kara-ho. How accurate was this article, and if it was, could someone please give me some insight as to this system (history, techniques, etc.). Thank you.
  2. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    SOrry this is soo late-

    That was the October, 1990 edition of Inside Kung-Fu.

    The reference is to learning the "death arts" after 10-15 years with Professor Chow. They mention that Professor was a master of the "Scorpion" technique and that it was only taught to one person with the stipulation that it was to be used only in a life or death situation or to protect the honor of the system. I cannot confirm if that one individual is Grandmaster Kuoha but I can ask him. The mo-o (Snake) techniques also were in the same category. Consequently all black belts in Kara-Ho are familiar with the snake... :)

    I hope this sheds a little light on the question-


    SATOKAN Valued Member

    Hey, better late than never! Thanks for taking the time. If I may, what are the characteristics of the snake techniques? I'm assuming they resemble kung-fu....
  4. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    Sorry- I should have been more specific. In Kara-Ho Kempo when a student reaches black-belt they are initiated with a snake technique. So I have felt it but have no idea how to perform it- I do not know if the snake or scorpion techniques are taught at higher levels in our system (I am not a high enough rank) but again I can ask...

    I am fortunate enough to train at Grandmaster Kuoha's house/Dojo with some of the top Kara-Ho instructors!

    Take care!


    SATOKAN Valued Member

    "So I have felt it but have no idea how to perform it...."

    From being on the receiving end, which I feel is one of the best ways to learn a technique, what did it feel like? Were you able to identify any of the techniques?
  6. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    Good question-

    The snake technique reminds me of one of those one touch knockouts... You basically wake up on the floor- Apparently it is a nerve center in the mouth.. Again this is just an initiation to those who make black-belt, it is not a technique that is taught, at least not that I have seen--

    Dunno if this answers your question-

    Take care-
  7. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    I was snaked while on a road trip at Sensei Rob's old dojo in Cody, WY.--- MANY folks were snaked that day including Sensei Ka'imi :)

    All on video--- pretty interesting to see.
  8. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Smoke & Mirrors

    Sorry, in all due respect, I don't believe in those 'knockouts'. George Dillman and his top black belt were made to look like fools on on the Discovery Channel when scientists volunteered to be 'knocked out'. This scientist who was about maybe 5'7' 130lbs just looked at him and smiled. Dillman comes on and says something like 'well, you have to believe in it in order for it to work', LOL, then Dillman comes back and says it can be countered if you point your big toe up on one foot and down on the other foot, LOL, whatever, it was a joke and Dillman is supposed to be 'the man' on these pressure point knockouts.

    Furthermore, I've been in law enforcement for just about three decades and there are many expert martial artsits in this country in law enforcement. If this was possible, it would be taught and it would be used, not only by LEO's but the military. How about the UFC? There are no documented incidents, and I don't mean war stories or testimonials BUT documented use of force situations of any civillian martial artist or m.a. police officer in a real life encounter to ever knock out someone by touch. I feel it's all 'smoke & mirrors'. I know there will be comebacks on this BUT I say just prove it for I'm sure the Discovery Channel will accomodate you. It will never happen.
  9. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    I had a long reply, but my browser deleted it.

    Basically, Kara-Ho Instructors are practical people that don't put up with BS. If a techniques doesn't hurt, it isn't far as I can tell, with my limited experience. "Snake Techniques" aren't widely advertised or practiced like Dillman techniques are, and the only people that actually "feel" these techniques are excellently conditioned, hard sparring adult instructors.

    I've been knocked out by a strike to the head, a choke to my arteries, and a blunted bayonet to my chest. Intense focused force on underprotected areas creates interesting results.

    Maybe one day DianHsuhe and PacificShore will be the ones that "Snake" me, and I'll understand it a little better then.
  10. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    I can only tell you that I have felt it and it works... No-one that has ever been snaked in our system have been able to stay on their feet either...

    I do not believe in 1 touch knock-outs either like Dillman and what-not... This I have felt though- I do not think I was knocked out but everything went dead for a moment and I was on the ground-

    This is an initiation for BB's not a fighting technique---

    It would be very impractical to use for LE since your hand needs to be inside the other guys mouth- :) It is also worth mentioning that our GM (Kuoha) is a former LE and many students including myself have a background in LE- they all fall down also -

    The good news is we do not rely on techniques like this for self-defense just good ole Dian-Hsuhe!
  11. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I think the confusion may be in describing "how" the technique is executed. If it is a "no touch" knockout type technique, then I also do not believe they are possible without a mentally suceptable uke (one who belives in the technique).
    If the technique involves "physically" striking, poking, grabbing, or manipulating a pressure point/nerve ending, then I got no problem with it. We all know techniques that will cause pain and or dizziness with just a little grab or poke.
    But of course targeting and executing these techniques on a mobile, fighting opponant is something else entirely.
  12. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    Sigung Bishop hit it on the head! The uke is standing there waiting for it... and it is a sort of grab :) We want to experience this...

    I should never have mentioned 1 touch knockouts in the first place... My bad.

    SATOKAN Valued Member

    Thanks for the info on the snake technique. I thought it was a series of techniques, but eventhough it's an 'introduction', it still seems very powerful and effective.

    As for 'one touch' knockouts, I do believe it might exist but those who can actually do it probably wont make it public for some time. Plus I think people misuse the word 'touch' for 'strike'. It's possible that it's a strike, probably not appearing powerful in its external appearance, but aimed at a point more than likely along one of the body's meridians, thus appearing like nothing more than a 'touch'.
  14. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member


    I agree with all of the above but that Dillman expose on the Discovery Channel really gave us all a black eye in front of the general public who doesn't have the knowledge we do about such things. It made the martial arts look like 'smoke & mirrors, some kind of carnival act. That's really too bad.
    With respect, "Joe"
  15. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    In Shorinji Kempo we had an instructor named Bando sensei. He used to regularly teach seiho (a system of massage and manipulation using pressure points) at our Hombu. He was the sensei on the BBC documentary Way Of The Warrior that was knocking students out, then resuscitating them. He told us at a training camp how pressure points can be effective on some people but not others. I have certainly experienced this in training; however I think that some of the more common ones are quite effective on most people provided they are attacked with the required impact and direction of force. I don't think no touch KO’s have a place in martial arts, they should remain in magic acts.

    Just a side note on Bando sensei. Prior to his death he had been working with the Japanese medical system for some time. They were studying how pressure points could be used and why they worked. His work was so appreciated and valuable that he received an award from the Government. He will be sadly missed, he was a great teacher always very approachable, patient and of good humour.
  16. gmkuoha

    gmkuoha Valued Member

    This is an initiation for BB's not a fighting technique---

    It would be very impractical to use for LE since your hand needs to be inside the other guys mouth- :) It is also worth mentioning that our GM (Kuoha) is a former LE and many students including myself have a background in LE- they all fall down also -

    Ohhhh but it is a self defense techniques that is taught in the Kara-Ho System but only a hand full will ever learn it by the time I leave this world. There are techniques designed with the uses of snake and scorpion, however very dangerous as it can and will be fatal to your opponents. This is why we do not teach them until an instructor reaches at least 6th dan, which in our system is like forever. Thus far only one person I have taught some of these too and that would be Shihan Mendoza, who would never repeat what I have taught him. It is said to me by Professor Chow that I should not teach it to anyone until he/she was of very high ranking and I felt would do no harm to anyone unless innocent lives were at stake. These techniques are deadly and 'cause serious blood clots in main artieries that travel to the heart. For these it is like a murderer's dream and I have vowed to obey what Professor has made me promise.

    Regarding using these in LE, we are supposed to protect life...not take it and in Kara-Ho, you are trained in various facets that could easily take another's life and these would not be necessary. I believe that learning of these death arts made one aware of the study of the human anatomy and the blood flow so I believe it was taught to me as a learning tool. Maybe in the old days it was used to take another's life so no one would know...but in today's world, I would hope that we are more civilized then that. So Sensei Jamey, time to get going and study hard so these things would be available to you before I die.
  17. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    Welcome to MAP GM Sam. It is an honor to have you here.
  18. gmkuoha

    gmkuoha Valued Member

    One more thing....the technique is not only surficed by attacking from inside the mouth, but to several parts of the body. I only use it for initiation purposes for controllability. If I make even a slightest mistake when I am doing could be fatal so I am extra cautious about when I do it. This is why I have deleted the use of double snake for initiation purposes. You are correct, in the over 100 times I have initiated our blacks belts, I have yet to find someone stand up while I put it on them, even so slightly. The toughest I have seen was former sgt/maj Sensei Al Parker of the 1st recon, USMC when he got his black belt. He dropped to floor in an instant but by survival instinct, he immediately bounced back up off the floor and said, thank you sir and when asked if he wanted another...he quickly sir. Most hit the floor and stay down for a few minutes and it stops all your brain waves from functioning...and if you have less brains like me...then it will take you longer to get up. Believe me I have had this done to me and Professor Chow was not so forgiving. I think all the things I did wrong in the past, he remembered when he snaked me. It felt like I was on the ground for several days but I knew it couldn't be more then a couple of hours (lol). It felt that I ran into a Mack Truck while the truck was moving at a great speed towards me. You think you are dead but in your own eyes you can still see everything about just can't feel them. Like someone came down and took away your spirit and left your that's death!

    Remember the story I tell about he and I going to the Hawaii Meat Market Slaughter House and killing the big pigs out there for our training once a week, usually on Saturday when they had a large amount to buncher for the Hawaiian Luaus. It was the use of the scorpion. Pretty funny story and I will remember that for the rest of my life.
    Grandmaster Kuoha
  19. gmkuoha

    gmkuoha Valued Member

    Thank you and I'm glad to be here. If any of you have any questions good or bad about me, our system or anyone in our system, write and I will be honest with you all about what I know. I have been led to other forums by students and friends and most are very derogotory and untrue and I would like to meet some of these people on there, face to face and see what they have to say for themselves. This forum like MT is pretty much very informative and very little mud slinging and that is awesome.
    Grandmaster Kuoha
  20. gmkuoha

    gmkuoha Valued Member


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