que sera serak

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Rogin, Apr 30, 2004.

  1. britsilatinmt

    britsilatinmt New Member

    hi guys,
    Is Lorenzo one of Cliff's students?

    Did the Wali Songo seem very similar, or quite different to the Serak?
    best wishes :)
     
  2. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Serak & Wali Songo

    Lorenzo is both student of Guru Cliff & Student of Guru Steven Benitez

    As for Serak & Wali Songo.

    Personally? I am more of a Serak man myself. I am always biased when it comes to silat because of my love for Serak. I believe that Serak has everything you need for all ranges of combat. Also I have trained it longer.

    My Serak teacher asked me to learn Wali Songo & Silat tuo because he said it would help me get a deeper understand of Silat and "Old school" Serak.

    I will say this....Wali Songo Kicks ass and is a really good system. I am just a begginer in Wali Songo. I have done Inosanto - Mande muda and maphilindo Silat for 6 years. And I personally like Wali songo's fluidity, conditioning and application much more. ALthough similar to Mande muda its more fluid. I can't explain it but you should see it on video. Guru Cliff showed me tapes of Guru Tony felix and Guru Steven I was blown away with their movement.

    I have only started to learn the beggining postures (Kacing, buaya, Gelek, Harimau, ) and some of the fighting application for the ground work from Guru Cliff. It has deffinetly improved my ability to move on the ground and also has opened up more my ability to understand my Serak more.

    From what I have seen Wali Songo is immensely fluid and very brutal.

    If you do Serak it will help you become more fluid if you study or learn Wali Songo or Silat Tuo. Its good to see how the Indonesians do Sera & Cimande and Silat Tuo. Its a bit different than the Dutch Indonesian "Serak"

    I like the effectiveness and brutally simple approach of the Dutch Indonesian Serak but its nice to see the "Classical" Silat Tuo Silat of Wali Songo in action as well.

    Anyhow a cool excercise I have adopted from Wali Songo is "Gelek"

    Guru CLiff told me to use it for my development of Djurus and lower body/ conditioning.

    I use it to do all my serak djurus with and also use it to practice my cloud hands in Qi Gong. I showed my accupuncturist Gelek ...she said that was Secret Qi Gong in China!

    On another note Its clear to me that Serak has - Cimande,Cibandar, and Cikalong and Some Bagua, Xing Yi and Yang style Tai chi in there. If you look at fighting application of Yang style tai chi you will see motions almost exact to Djurus 2, 3 , 6 from Serak also you will see the gaurdian hand at work as well. Also Watch Shou Yu Liang's Bagua Video he has Sapus, Bisets, Kenjits, Lempar Lengan, the only difference is he uses circle foot work to get in to them. Double palm change in Bagua is basically Kenjit training from circular motion. Its my humble opinion that when you put all lankahs together in serak its a circle....but i could be wrong.

    What makes it amazing for me is Serak really has everything you need in combat. And when your not sure you check your djurus or langkahs and you will find the answer.

    "a little Silat Goes a long way."

    - Silat Yogi
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2005
  3. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Serak "has" Taiji, Xing-Yi etc. There are certainly movements and techniques that are found in both, but that would be like saying Karate has Capoeira because they both have a thrusting front kick. There are only so many efficient close-range standup techniques out there.

    If you want to do some old school Serak and can make the drive up I-5 you're always welcome to train with us up in Oregon. Guru Stewart has been promising to come up and visit/train with Guru Plinck for a while now. I'm about ready to send my wife down to knock him on the head, throw him in the trunk and bring him up here by force :)
     
  4. britsilatinmt

    britsilatinmt New Member

    Thanks for that Silatyogi,

    ah, so would i be right in saying serak doesnt use gelek? what do you use in serak to power the attacks? I vaguely remember Tony Felix showing me a little, and saying there was a bit more movement of the waist later on in the system.

    I wouldnt mind seeing a bit more, are there any video links on the web? Ive heard some good things about it.

    If you like the Wali Songo as a beginner, you'll love it when you get onto the pukulan.

    best wishes
     
  5. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    <<"I'm not sure it's accurate to say that Serak "has" Taiji, Xing-Yi etc. There are certainly movements and techniques that are found in both, but that would be like saying Karate has Capoeira because they both have a thrusting front kick. There are only so many efficient close-range standup techniques out there. >>

    Well I have done the research with both Bagua teachers and Tai chi Yang style. They both have said it has many similarities to Silat. Xing yi not so much but I have seen the similarities in it. I also had the privialge of seeing "Closed door" Tai chi videos of the old masters from china from the early 80's that Bagua master Sifu John Bracy showed me. what they where doing looked VERY VERY VERY Similar to stuff I have seen Pendekar Paul do on Video. Also Watch BK Frantzis in action you will also see many similarities. Now that may come to a shock to some.

    I believe I read somewhere on Pencaksilat.com that Pa Serak was influenced by 9 arts 5 indonesian 2 Indian and 2 Chinese. So to me it doesn't come as such a surprise. Serak is an internal system and many of the principles are in most of the "Internal arts" from China. Yes you are right its not exactly the same. I personaly prefer Serak over training other arts but i can not help but notice that what we do can be enhanced if you understand how internal principles work regardless of where they come from. And if you have never been hit by a real Bagua guy or Tai chi player you should. You will learn to respect more the art you practice and also learn to enhance what you are doing if you can be open to see what may have influenced the art you practice today. Its like a good modern composer of today will research every music under the sun to understand more what he or she is doing. You can see a distinct similarity in them and in serak that you don't see so much in other silat systems. And they are more related than lets say Karate and Capoeira. Anybody who really understands body mechanics on a subtle level and understand structure will be able to look at Serak and lets say Yang Style tai chi and go ok the fighting application is the same the body ailgnment is the same. The entry is the same. The displacement of energy or the unbalancing is the same. What might be different is cultural aspect of the arts. Also I will admit that what most "see" as being Tai chi and Bagua these days is in no way the real fighting arts that they once where. If you can have the oppurtunity to train with a real master in those systems you should deffinetly do so just for the experience and also to see....does my ability and my art hold up? Only a few masters can really show the real stuff. Its just like Serak... Many claim they know it but only a handful do.

    <<If you want to do some old school Serak and can make the drive up I-5 you're always welcome to train with us up in Oregon. Guru Stewart has been promising to come up and visit/train with Guru Plinck for a while now. I'm about ready to send my wife down to knock him on the head, throw him in the trunk and bring him up here by force ">>

    Thanks for the Invite. I have been wanting to train with Guru Plink for a while now. I was blown away by him in 2000. I had a great time with him in Miami when he was at Uncle Bill's Gathering. I have been in contact with Guru Plink about training. Also I am Sure Cliff has plans to see him as well.

    Take care

    Hormat,

    Silatyogi
     
  6. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    There is certainly gelek in Serak. The way Guru Plinck teaches it it's a bit smaller and subtler than what you see in forms competition, and it's introduced gradually so that it's in balance with the rest of the teaching progression. He considers it bad for the sutdent's development to emphasize advanced things too soon. Fundamentals first.

    I don't mean to shill, but his first two Serak tapes include a lot of good basic material on the system.
     
  7. britsilatinmt

    britsilatinmt New Member

    interesting, thanks for that..

    i dont suppose you know if theres anyone training in the montana area?

    best wishes
     
  8. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    <<There is certainly gelek in Serak. The way Guru Plinck teaches it it's a bit smaller and subtler than what you see in forms competition, and it's introduced gradually so that it's in balance with the rest of the teaching progression. He considers it bad for the sutdent's development to emphasize advanced things too soon. Fundamentals first.>>

    Yeah Guru Cliff actually told me that Guru Stevan Plinck Teaches Gelek aswell. Its true that core moves and turns a lot in serak but its deffinetly more subtle than most silat styles. I try to work Gelek both exaggerated and then subtle to improve my movement.

    <<I don't mean to shill, but his first two Serak tapes include a lot of good basic material on the system.>>


    Those two tapes are great. I really found a ton of valuable information on them. I have not seen the 3rd one yet. Are there anymore avaliable? I also enjoyed the old Paladin Bukti tape.

    tellner, britsilatinmt,

    thanks for sharing and for the posts.


    Take care

    Hormat,

    Silatyogi
     
  9. tellner

    tellner Valued Member


    That's not much of a shock. We've got a couple of Taiji players and a student who has been doing Ba Gua for about ten years under a well-known lineage that will remain nameless :rolleyes: He learned good body mechanics, a lot of form and technique, precious little about how to use what they were teaching him. He's to polite to say so, but I think his old teacher resents the "secrets" that he's learning where secrets = basic Silat understanding and applications.

    It's not that the neijia systems lack this sort of thing. They are incredibly sophisticated. It's an indictment of of teachers who combine greed with racism and secrecy to the detriment of their students and the art. But that's a topic for a different rant.

    I see a lot of similarities in how things are done. It's easy to say "What they're doing is similar". It's much riskier to say "This comes from that", when you're talking about oral history second or third hand. I've already stepped on my manhood and shot myself in the foot on things like this and am trying to get that diplomacy merit badge :)

    That would be Guru Victor's site.

    Hey, I *like* all my internal organs in the same place they started out in. Why would I want a ruptured spleen? Seriously, there is nothing like good internal Chinese MA. The problem is that to find the nuggets you have to pan a lot of crystal-gazing bark-eating gravel.

    Certainly. Just trying to avoid stepping on toes. I see even stronger similarities with the little bit of Kalaripayittu that Mushtaq Ali al-Ansari has shown us. Unfortunately, good South Asian martial arts is even harder to find than Silat or neijia.


    Ain't that the truth.

    We went through a number of Taiji teachers in the area trying to find one who had the internal body mechanics and who could fight. There must be one somewhere around here, but we've come up empty so far.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2005
  10. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    <<I see even stronger similarities with the little bit of Kalaripayittu that Mushtaq Ali al-Ansari has shown us. Unfortunately, good South Asian martial arts is even harder to find than Silat or neijia. >>


    That is deffinetly true.. there is a Kalari guy in Miami but he is hard to find and is not training any one! But what I have seen from that is indeed similar and very related. John Bracy , Bk Frantzis are both phenomenal Tai chi , Xing Yi, Bagua players. I had the oppurtunity to train with Bracy twice. He was very open with his fighting principles and with sharing information and most of all testing to see if it worked.....all I can say is OUCH. He is also very much scientific about stuff and not mystical so its great to see how he approaches things. I showed him a bit of Serak he said he has enjoyed working with silat players cause its similar to what he does and he said most silat styles have a lot of internal principles in their training and forms. We talked a little about application from both Bagua & Silat and they are very similar. A lot of the throws, strikes, and off balancing. There leverage is not so intricate as I have experienced in serak but its similar and still efective.
    Their most impressive thing I noticed was their use of what they call verticle power and spinal suspension.

    anyhow please don't misunderstand what i meant that Serak "COMES FROM this or that". I apologize what i meant to say is that it is my opinion that you can see the influence of the internal arts and that somewhere down the line the founders of Serak must have experienced some internal bad ass who shared some secrets....or they themselves where these bad asses.
     
  11. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Not a problem at all. I'm not one of those Indonesian chauvanists who believes that there is no Chinese influence or anything like that. If there's one thing the Malay culture is great at it's syncretism. With at least three high cultures mixing in one place the old Javanese fought all sorts of people. The survivors are bound to have picked up something...
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2005

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