que sera serak

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Rogin, Apr 30, 2004.

  1. Rogin

    Rogin New Member

    Just curious, how many of you silat players have come across, trained in, etc. silat serak? Just wondering what your opinions are on the effectiveness and style of serak. Personally it looks like it is very practical but will take long road to become effective.

    Rogin
     
  2. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    I trained in it for a couple of years and my instructor trained in Bukti Negara (a "child" art of Serak) for several years and in Serak for a couple of years. Much of the Silat I do is rooted, one way or another, in Serak. I think it's very practical.

    But, in my experience, you're right. Long road to become effective with it. I had been training with my instructor for 3 years and doing Silat (not specifically Serak but, like I said, very Serak influenced) nearly every day of that 3 years before I felt like I might actually be able to pull any of it off.

    However, I think it's been more than worth it in the long run :)

    Mike
     
  3. Rogin

    Rogin New Member

    How so? I'm curious, when you say it's "rooted" in Serak, do you mean applying techniques from other arts into a Serak framework?

    BTW saw the clips on your site, pretty cool. It helped my sapu sink in conceptually for me.

    Rogin
     
  4. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Cool :) Glad I could be of help.

    I mean that my instructor trained in Bukti Negara with Dan Inosanto and Paul de Thouars for many years, in Serak with Victor de Thouars for several years, in Mande Muda with Dan Inosanto and Herman Suwanda for many years (there's a little Serak influence in Mande Muda, too), and in Kuntao Silat de Thouars with Willem de Thouars (which also has some Serak in it).

    I've been training with my instructor for a little over 9 years now, have trained directly with Victor de Thouars (though not as a direct student), at many seminars with Herman Suwanda and Dan Inosanto, and directly with Willem de Thouars (as a direct student).

    So by "rooted in" Serak, I mean that there's a lot of Serak influence in the Silat that I do - from a variety of sources. If I had to put it into percentages, I'd say that the Silat I do is about 50% Serak, 10% Harimau, 15% Cimande, 20% Cipecut, and the other 5% is drawn from the rest of the Silat I've been exposed to and trained in (mostly from the Mande Muda - things like Kari, Madi, Cikalong, etc. and some from Uncle Bill like Tji Kompak, Petjut, Kilat, etc.)

    Mike
     
  5. Rogin

    Rogin New Member

    Thanks, Mike! I've just begun in serak as a student of a student of Victor De Thouars. I find it to be really challenging, but it got me curious as to what forms serak derived from.
    I understand there could be up to a 1000 varieties of silat, I was just wondering, through your studies have you noticed if they have similar underlying principles, like base, angle, leverage, and so on?
    I'd like to research the history of silat. Any recommendations for reading?

    Rogin
     
  6. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    "The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia" by Donn F. Draeger

    "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian Archipelago" by O'Ong Maryono

    Both of these books provide a general overview without the "Silat politics" that
    seems prevalent in the US. The Draeger book is easier to find.
     
  7. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    I'd second the books mentioned by Ular Sawa. I've not read Pak O'ong Maryono but I've read quite a bit of things written by him over the years and can't imagine that his book would be anything other than good.

    Donn Draeger's book was published in the early '70s and some of the info is outdated but it's still one of the best resources of general Silat info out there.

    As far as Serak specifically - I don't know. Depends on who you ask. Everyone seems to have their own version.

    My policy, for what it's worth, is this: "believe what your instructor tells you - but don't take it as gospel."

    10 people witness a car accident. No 2 of those witnesses will have seen exactly the same thing - simply because of angles, obstructions, distractions, etc. Even if 2 people see the exact same thing from the exact same angle at the exact same time (which is physically impossible), there will be differences that arise from their individual perceptions. If it was a burgundy car hitting a teal car. One witness may say that it was a brown car and a blue car. Another may say that it was a red car and a green car. Both witnesses are stating what they perceived - and both are telling the truth. But the truth is almost never the same as perceived truth.

    Consequently, as I understand it, Pak Serak had a style of fighting that was very effective. He trained Mas Djoet, Mas Roen, and Mas Muhammad (I believe that was the third guy - he's not mentioned often and I think he got kicked out at some point). Mas Djoet and Mas Roen took what Pak Serak taught them and they were really the ones (probably with input from Pak Serak) who formalized a system for teaching what Pak Serak did. Mas Djoet is the best known because he traveled quite a bit and shared the art with quite a few people.

    Probably the only person who could answer "what influences did Serak draw from" was Pak Serak - and he's long dead. His students probably knew what they had been told, if anything, and may have had some conjecture of their own. And may have added some of their own flavor to it during the systemization. But the bottom line is that there have been several generations between Pak Serak and today's teachers. In the de Thouars lineage, you've got Mas Djoet to Johann de Vries to his nephews to their nephews (the de Thouars brothers). And you've got Mas Roen to Tisari Mardjuki to Pak Vic (who also trained with his brother Paul and their uncle John). So, at the least, you've got 3 or 4 generations since Pak Serak. And the history would have been passed down, of course, but each passing down would be colored by the perception of the teller and compounded by the perceptions of the previous generations. None were lying - but at this point it'd be pretty much impossible to find the entire truth. Each of the current instructors has a part of the truth.

    Of course, this problem isn't limited to Serak. It's true of every martial art and of history in general.

    So, I guess this was a very long-winded way of telling you that my advice would be to ask your instructor. Believe what he says. Over time, you'll hear other stories. Some will conflict (at least in part) with what your instructor has told you. Others will confirm it (at least in part). Unless you put together a time machine, you'll never know the truth but if you keep an open mind, use some common sense, and keep your ear to the ground, you should be able to put together something that makes sense to you - and it'll be as close to the truth as anyone in our generation of Silat players is likely to ever get :)

    Mike
     
  8. Rogin

    Rogin New Member

    Heheh remind me of the thread I started in the Philosophy forum.

    Thanks for that.. I just like hearing different viewpoints, especially from someone with experience.

    When it comes down to it, it's going to be about what works and what sticks for me. But I enjoy the information gathering.

    Selamat,

    Rogin
     
  9. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    LOL. No problem.

    There are a lot of conflicting stories out there about the Serak history. Some claim that Mas Djoet was a Cimande practitioner and that Serak was, somehow, an offshoot of Cimande. I don't doubt that Mas Djoet was exposed to Cimande. And, in fact, I've heard that there's even some pretty solid evidence that he actually trained in Cimande. But to take that and say that "Serak is an offshoot of Cimande" seems a bit of a stretch to me.

    Many people that I've talked to feel that Cimande, as one of the older and more predominant systems of Java, almost certainly had some influence on Serak - either material drawn from Cimande or material intended to counter Cimande. Same is true with people claiming there is influence from Chinese Kuntao.

    As to the actual truth - impossible for anyone to say at this point in time (at least in my estimation) :)

    I don't know - and, honestly, don't really care. And, along the lines of your own comment, I know that what I've gotten from it has helped me in many ways. And it works for me. Anything beyond that is somewhat a moot point.

    Mike
     
  10. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    I agree with this, Mike, though some recent academic research indicates a stronger connection to Tjimande (Cimande) than previously thought. At this remove, a lot of what happened in West Java back in the day is impossible to nail down for sure.

    I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest, part of Stevan Plinck's Pukulan Pentjak Silat Sera(k) silat group. We believe that Tjimande was the basis for a whole lot of stuff, and that it was very likely the creator of Sera knew Tjimande, since it is one of the oldest and most widely-practiced systems. At the very least, he would have had to come up with answers for Tjimande; at the most, he would have incorporated some of it into his personal art.

    According to folks who know, everybody stole from everybody. If they saw something that worked, they would figure out a way to work into their style. If I had to point to one big difference between Sera and Tjimande, it would be what constitutes distance. Both use all the ranges, but Tjimande seems more comfortable a little farther out than Sera does.

    I've argued at some length about the history with Pendekar Sanders and his folks -- their dates, and what they call Sera don't work for me. But, as you say, the history is not as important as the art, and what we do, wherever it came from, isn't what Tjimande players do today.

    STeve
     
  11. grimel

    grimel New Member

    Define long road and effective. In my Serak class we have another student who works with violent juvenile sex offenders. He gets to "play" several times a week. He found the Serak he learned in the first 2 months to be orders of manitude more effective than everything taught on the job. Sambut 1 handles a large chunk of life.

    BTW, are you at Pak Vic's school?

    edit: Never mind, you're in Oakland. Ca. duh!
     
  12. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Sera's Effectiveness

    Of course, we think Sera is an effective art, but it does take some time to become adept at it. True, there are some things you can learn and use pretty quick, especially against people with little or no knowledge of fighting, but the idea behind the art -- at least how we do it -- is to learn how to deal with folks who are as well-trained as you are.

    You can learn Djuru One in a few minutes, but that's not the same as being able to apply it against a fighter with some skill ...

    Steve
     
  13. Rogin

    Rogin New Member

    Sambut 1! So destructive... I take it, he skips the elbow smash and the neck break? :D

    I'm learning under Guru Ray, who just received his Guru Muda ranking from Pak Vic. He's a Grandson Guru, three generations of Guru's From Pak Vic, to Guru Mike, to Guru Ray. Pak Vic wrote that that hasn't happened since 1925 when Pak Mardjoeki became a Sera Guru.
    Where are you located, grimel?

    Rogin
     
  14. grimel

    grimel New Member

    Oak Ridge under Guru Jerry McCleary.
     
  15. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    "Just curious, how many of you silat players have come across, trained in, etc. silat serak? Just wondering what your opinions are on the effectiveness and style of serak. Personally it looks like it is very practical but will take long road to become effective.

    Rogin"

    I think its Highly Practical, One of the better known practitioners of Serak is Cliff Stewart, who at times has been the bodyguard to the royal family of Saudi Arabia, Mr. T, and Larry Flynt. If your Larry Flynts bodyguard you need to be very good. Another Serak persona of note is Cass Magda who was Ozzy Osbournes Bodyguard. Given that both gentleman had to protect highly visible individuals who can recieve a threat at any time it says something that they chose Pentjak Silat Serak/ Bukti Negara as thier primary foundation.
     
  16. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Serak

    Deffinetly you can quickly be able to defend your self but to be realy realy good and to pull this art of against good fighters or multiple attackers it takes lots of training. Just like anything in life you want to get good at it you have to bust your ass. Everytime I think I get good and I pull some things off in sparring or training I go back to my instructor (Guru Cliff Stewart) and I get used as a mop against the floor!

    Serak is deffinetly very effective and its a path worth traveling no matter how long it takes to get good.

    -santi
     
  17. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hey Silatyogi,

    I just got back from LA from doing a few seminars for Guru Cliff with Steve Benitez, where you there?

    Regards,
    Wali
     
  18. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Hi Wali!

    Yes I was just there last weekend with Guru Cliff for his Silat Camp and doing some private training with him.

    It was great! His house was filled that whole weekend with at least 12 snoring, farting, funky, Silat players!

    Lorenzo did a good job of showing some basics in Walisongo.
    take care

    -Santi
     
  19. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    I had personal obligations last weekend and couldn't make it to the LA Silat bash. How was it? Who was teaching?
     
  20. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Silat camp

    Master Ahati "Kilindi" Iyi: African Martial Arts
    Mestre Dennis Newsome: Capoeira - Angola
    Master Graciella Casillas: Filipino Knife and Stick Science
    Master Rick Suskind: Bando - Cobra System
    Maha Guru Cliff Stewart: LA Kilat Pukulan Pencak Silat
    Guru Thomas Lomax: LA Kilat Pukulan Pencak Silat
    Guru Lorenzo : Wali Songo Silat

    Also Ron Chapel came to teach about structural integrity and alignment this was very cool!

    He is from Ed Parkers orginal Black belts
     

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