Quality vs. Authenticity

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by AirNick, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member

    Bruce,

    I think you'd find that sword work in Kuk Sool has more in common with other classic Korean Gum Beop. The Jung Gum Form does actually have both full cuts, thrusts in coordination with spinning material as the intent of the form is larger in scope than helping a student learn precision cutting. Prior to learning Jung Gum material, masters that stress sword work typically teach a great deal of sword meditation work, basic cutting motion and cutting/with movement that stress full cut through motions. I've personally had this foundational material stressed to me by both Master Scott Seo and Master Barry Harmon (both individuals who I consider highly skilled in sword work).

    The Jung Gum form also can have extreme interpretations. Using a live blade or heavy Mok Gum will yield a very different looking form vs. a more demonstration oriented form that yields a much different result. I'm assuming that you've seen more of the latter than the former.


    Steve Seo
     
  2. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Good post Steve, this is the point I was going to make when I got back. I'm glad I had to leave Steve said it better than I could have.

    I have done the form with a live blade and yoUr right about the difference in the performance as opposed to a practice weapon. Mentally you must be focused and your techniques have to be precise.

    And for the novice DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE A CUTTING BLADE FOR PRACTICING YOUR HYUNG UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO SO!

    If you are not mentally prepared or have the proper skill level you could injure yourself.
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yes, indeed. Even among Kumdo practitioners who compete against Kendo practitioners there are commonly heard observations. The Kumdo people view the Kendo folks as using their JUK-TO much "like a fly-swatter" while Kendo people often accuse Korean players of using excessively heavy strikes.

    In cutting targets it is almost impossible to explain the sort of arm/wrist motion that makes for correct angle of attack, which is why we start with various weights of paper and fabric before moving to straw and finally to rope.

    BTW: I can also report that I am no fan of cutting any of the modern materials such as "pool noodles", mailing tubes, "plastic bamboo" or discarded milk containers filled with various materials. I have strayed into "variant materials" twice; once for sugar cane; once for corn stalks. Clean-up on a quality blade did not justify the experiments. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    That's good to know, Bruce, I hadn't gone that route yet and now I guess I don't have to bother with it. :cool:


    But about the paper armor thing mentioned earlier, as best I understand it, the paper to use is rice paper (of course) and torn into very thin strips. This type of paper is much more pliable than paper made from wood pulp and so the strips are therefore easily twisted (or rolled between the fingers) to make a durable string. Once you have enough paper string, weaving twine and then rope is no different than using traditional materials such as hemp or jute, except that by starting with rice paper, the end product is not only much lighter than regular rope but feels much softer against the skin. By relying on macrame techniques, the idea of producing garments from the paper rope is perfectly conceivable.

    I have seen a latticework undergarment in a museum (sorry, I don't recall the exact materials used for said undergarment, but I want to say it was short pieces of small diameter bamboo strung like beads on a thread) which was used by royalty so they wouldn't ruin their fine silk robes (with their sweat), which often had delicate embroidery and took years to make. And while merely a guess on my part, it's not out of line to presume that soldiers might have used the (paper) rope to make a similar latticework undergarment to wear under their armor, resulting in an extra-thick padded layer. Understand that metal armor came later and initially it was little more than lacquered leather (possibly inlaid with metal studs). Any such macrame'd garments (whether used under the armor or all by itself) while not being as formidable as say, chain mail, could definitely serve a similar purpose, would be much lighter in weight, as well as cheaper and easier to produce.

    If anyone has different insights into this phenomenon, please chime in.
     
  5. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Hi KJN, your insight into the "rice paper" armour is and especially the method of cosnstruction is very conceivable, and quite insightful.

    While not knowing about Asian armour and asian materials of construction of such, I am very familiar with European armour and materials of construction and can draw parallels between the prupose of the armour.

    The idea of a quilted armour in the mediaeval period is very common, and probably more widely used by more troops than metal armour because metal armour is very very expensive (consider the cost of chain mail in Norman Conquest period as costing the owner the equivalent of what it woulod cost you or I to buy a high performance sports car! And while the advent of plate and such made the chain mail cheaper, it would still be considered an expensive item to be purchased by the vast majority of troops, who would probably make do with quilted armour and if possible metal over certain vulnerable points like head, chest or stomach). I see a parallel here in Asian armies where only the very rich would be able to afford metal armour some form of quilted armour wouold be the norm.


    Therefore quilted armour was used either stand alone, or in conjunction with leather armour, and if you could aford it under and over metal armour. It was also the armour of choise for light infantry such as archers.

    The materials of construction, and the method of construction in europe could vary, but suffice it to say people wore it because it was effective.

    There is evidence and research to indicate that with the right construction it would not only help protect against blunt force trauma it could prevent penetration through cuts and piercing, or at the very least severely reduce the depth of the cut or penetration. Obviously it was not infalible but it offered good protection. Wool, linen, animal hair, and many other materials were used to stuff the quilted material, which offered both protection and breathability; one thing you do not want to do is overheat in battle!

    Therefore the idea of Rice paper armour sounds very feasible, especially in the way that you describe the matrerial could be utilised to create the armour. In the same way as European Quilted armour would not guarentee invicinbiity, it gave you a damned sight more protection against a lethal injury and one that you might just survive. It would also be light, breathable, and relatively cheap. It would also probably be able to be made at home by "amature" armourers as opposed to requiring the services of a specialist armourer that metal armour would require.

    Just an insight in support from a different perspective, which I hope helps.

    All the best,

    Quozl
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Not to beat the drum too loudly, Unknown, but what you just shared is very valuable from the standpoint of understanding the development of Korean martial traditions.
    These are the sorts of things that need to be recorded and citations provided. The theme of this thread is about "quality" and my thought is that your post definitely qualifies! But before your contribution gets lost in the shuffle of hundreds of posts on as many threads, we really need to think about getting it noted. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    So sorry, Bruce, but unfortunately it's part speculation (due to knowledge of western batting worn under armor, as mentioned by Quozl, combined with knot tying and macrame and the silk protector undergarment I mentioned), part taking stuff at face value (as you mentioned, not subscribing to the notion of using written sutras worn under one's armor as "divine" protection), and part hearsay (your loathed "oral tradition").

    I wish there were some substantiation, but alas, there isn't AFAIK. :cry:
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Hmmmm...... the military museum at YONGSAN Institute puts out a monthly or quarterly magazine regarding military and martial practices. I wonder if they might have anything there. I don't remember seeing anything in their collection that spoke to this matter specifically but didn't take time to ask about an index to their publication. There is also the national museum in Seoul. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     

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