Quality control in the Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Aug 8, 2011.

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  1. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    What? I have been training Martial arts since I was 15 years old,in a multitude of fighting Arts .
    I have experience of fighting without a truncheon and a load of mates and the law backing me up.
    My name is all the promotion I have needed.
    I dont need a certificate for people to accept what I say.
  2. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    That much is true, however a professional qualification needs to be regularly updated.

    At work I hold professional qualifications, so the advice I give my clients is based on European standards.

    I have to update my certification regularly to understand the changes in the law and the standards to which I am held.

    I am fighting a battle against those who are in the same business, but don't hold those professional qualifications.

    If you are just teaching, then an instructors insurance may be enough, but for self defence you should understand the law as a very minimum.

    "I understand the law", isn't enough of an answer, you should hold qualifications and be accountable for the advice you give.

    Legally underpinned is the term the pro's use.
  3. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    I have never claimed to teach self defence
    I claim to teach "realistic Martial Application" is all.Nothing more.
  4. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    That and the cool attire !

    "Rodger?, is that the jacket bloke?":evil:
  5. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    I'm no big fan of the Bujinkan way, but I honestly think that Hatsumi sensei doesn't care one bit. I think the Bujinkan is just a way for him to have fun and make some (ok, a lot) of money. I doubt he will care what happens to it when he passes away, because he certainly doesn't seem to care what happens to it now :)

    The one thing he will care about is what was entrusted to him by Takamatsu sensei. If he has taken care of that, the rest is just a matter of having fun while it lasts.
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    George Rodgers posted

    I went school with kids that have been fighting since they were 15 years old.

    And what grades do you hold in these pray tell, and if you hold black belt and above why not have these on your website along with your Godan?

    So what?

    Just because your standing on a door and the police helping you means very little. I teach door supervisors (The old bouncers) once a month and i've met some great guys and some have been on doors for 20 years plus. Many don't know how to do a lock, a takedown, know anything about law or much anything else. Just because you have had a few incidents where the police have helped you does not make you qualified to teach realistic martial applications, especially if the grade you hold in martial applications/arts was given to you by an organisation that just gives out grades willy nilly to anyone who turns up to Japan (Your point not mine)

    Well your not Stephen K Hayes or Masaaki Hatsumi whose names are known world wide, so I don't know what you mean by that. But if you mean your well known in your local area for what you teach thats fine.

    Well depends what your saying.

    If as you say...

    Well firstly my question is "Whats the difference?"

    If you teaching "realistic martial application" which presumably is about how to use martial arts in realistic environment i.e. when you get attacked, isn't this "Self Defence?"

    And as such, and I have to agree with Simon, qualifications are important. For example I teach door supervisors in physical intervention, conflict resolution and self protection. I have to be qualified to do so by law, so I have to have a City and Guilds in Conflict Resolution management, a city and guilds in PTTLS and have my Physical Intervention qualification updated each year because things change. In fact i'm on my next course tomorrow. Thats before I even mention martial arts.

    Now i'm not saying that you have all these qualifications as your not teaching SIA courses but if your teaching realistic martial applications then surely you need to know about law, conflict resolution management, and such things as restraint asphyxiation, excitable delirium, triggers, impacts factors, inhibitors etc.

    Otherwise your just teaching your view of how to do Ninjutsu based on a grade you say is worthless.
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Nope. Not as I see it and I think I can see where George is coming from. I hope that's something of a rhetorical question Gary because considering the areas you deliver instruction in it's a bit worrying if not.

    Self defence is self defence, the ability to survive or avoid a violent or dangerous encounter whilst if necessary making an affirmative but justifiable defence of your actions in the eyes of the law.

    Realistic martial application? To me that reads as simply applying your technical skills in a fight. It may cover HAOV based on the teacher's knowledge of what could be encountered in the local environment but it doesn't necessarily say self defence to me.

    I could apply it to my Koryu training. This is my skills set, this is where it was designed to work, this is where I now want it to work, this is how I have to alter my approach to apply it in my current environment.

    I could then apply the skills rather handily in today's world but without approaching it from a self defence type of perspective then I may well find my responses being OTT all of the time. I would be applying the waza effectively but it may not be appropriately.

    George seems to me to be just taking a slice of the pie and teaching that while not claiming to teach anything else, it's one small part.

    Awful when people do that isn't it. :eek:
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    You thought you were better, so you left.

    What did others think?
  9. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    You are just jealous.

    That is a lovely smoking-jacket.
  10. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Dean Winchester posted

    I'll come back to this at the end.

    Sure there are people who teach self defence thats not based on a martial system, although it can be argued that all self defence systems are based somewhat on techniques one would find in the martial arts.

    There are others, (possibly the majority) who teach self defence based off of their martial systems, i.e. the karate guy down the road who offers a 10 week self defence course or who even states his martial arts are self defence, or even as his posters say (Karate, the best self defence system in the world) in fact its quite hard not to be influenced in some way regarding the martial arts you have been taught when teacching a self defence system.

    Now geting back to the problem. I can see that what George is doing is in his words "realistic martial application" and of course he has the grade (Godan) to say that he understands martial arts. BUT WAIT A MINUTE George has said that grades are worthless in the Bujinkan and therefore his Godan counts for nothing, or is Georges godan different to everyone elses Godan?

    So how can George be teaching "Realistic Martial Application" if his grades are not an indicator of his knowledge of martials or indeed skill level?

    And thats fine, anyone can adapt their martial art to suit a different environment and some may call it self defence and others martial application, but lets say you were a member of a Koryu, that just gave out grades willy nilly to all people thats turned up in Japan, would you be justifiable in teaching a system based off of that martial art, when you know (As George has stated) your grade isnt worth anything and your grade is not a guarantee or accurate assessment of your knowledge or skill set of that martial art?

    Yes I think we are splitting hairs here between self defence and traditional martial arts. If we take say a slider we could have at one end traditional martial arts used as a self defence, and at the other self defence arts that have no input from martial arts. Inbetween you'll get all kinds of mixes of martial arts and self defence so

    100% Ninjutsu-------------------------100% Self defence (No martial influence)

    But in betwwen that...

    System one 70% ninjutsu/30% self defence
    system 2 50% ninjutsu/50% self defence
    etc etc

    So where do you draw the line between self defence and martial techniques or application?

    Anmd when Hatsumi is doing a fire arm disarm is he teaching Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Martial Arts, Self defence or Martial application?

    And thats fine, I have no problem with that, but George has kind of shot himself in the foot.

    He started by stating he's a Godan in Ninjutsu and he teaches martial application on the back of that. Good for George.

    But then he says "Grades in Bujinkan aren't worth anything"

    So the question that comes to mind is..."Wait a minute George your saying your a Godan, yet you claim grades are just given out, so how can you use you grade as a indicator of your skill?"

    So its not, in your words, of George just taking a slice of the pie but of having his cake and eating eat.

    In fact theres a problem here...

    Option one: George says that his Godan is worth something. Ok then why leave the organisation?
    Option two: George says Grades in Bujinkan are worthless hense why he left. Ok then you can't use your Godan as an indicator of your skill or knowledge.

    You can't have both.

    Now I have no problem in George leaving for others reasons as I have done, but you can't knock the system that gave you the grades in regard to the grading system yet still use you grade as an indicator of your skill.

    Now lets get back to this statement...

    Ok lets look at whats I deliver instruction in...

    Firstly SIA security courses which include an element of physical intervention and self protection, which I have qualifications to the governments standards to teach. Over and above that I'm also trained in control and restraint as well as working for 30 years in the security industry which included time as a CPO, Police Officer, security manager etc. Thats before I even mention martial arts.

    Now in relation to martial arts, what I teach are the techniques of Ninjutsu based off of what I have been taught over the last 20 odd years being a member of various organisations. And still training and learning.

    Now i'll agree that sometimes we look at more modern applications of Ninjutsu although I feel that in many instances Ninjutsu is a self defence system in its own right, after all thats why it was developed right?

    But what i'm not doing is kicking myself in the teeth, like George has done by stating, look I have all these wonderful qualifications given by organisations that just give them away to anyone who wants them.

    So in a way George would have been better keeping stum, using his Godan as an indicator of skill, but of course George has been honest and spoken his mind about his grade which is great but leaves us with a dilemma.

    If your selling yourself on the basis of your grade, yet your grade is one thats given out to basically anyone that turns up in Japan, you then can't use that grade as an indicator of your skill and knowledge.

    Hense this term "Martial Application" means nothing if you have no skill in martial arts.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  11. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    We need a broken record smiley.
  12. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Yes I think i've overstated the points i'm making, but strangely people still don't get it.Maybe this smiley :hammer:
  13. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    What about a little tape recorder on a permanent loop smiley?

    Is that the alarm ringing? Rise and shine, it's Groundhog Day! Lol
  14. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    But being serious for a second, I'm a little confused see... Am I picking up a vibe that you feel George shouldn't bag out bujinkan grades whilst advertising his personal one?
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That would be my thinking.
    Assuming "bag out" means criticise.
  16. garth

    garth Valued Member

    hatsie posted

    What makes you think that?
  17. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Gary ,yes I do have Dan grade in other arts,and if I had written the web site,or wanted to promote myself through it ,I would have mentioned then.But as I didn't and don't.I have not.
    Also I don't know whether you know this ,but some fighting arts (like boxing)don't have Dan grades
    Now I posted this the other day.I was not joking .
    "george rodger's Avatar
    george rodger george rodger is online now
    Valued Member

    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Posts: 1,663
    Thanked 360 Times in 258 Posts
    I have asked Steve to add this to the first paragraph of the JAG Martial Arts home page

    "The Godan test simply shows that you can avoid a stick at a given point in time .And the grade is not a testament to either Jason or Georges skill or ability ,as Bujinkan grades are handed out like confetti and are practically worthless.It will be up to the student to decide on the value of the teaching."

    I hope that will end any suggestion that I am using my Bujinkan grade to attract custom
    Will that suffice?
    if I want your opinion I will beat it out of you "

    Gary ,unlike you I am not trying to profit from what I teach.
    I dont have to try year in year out to convince people I am not a chancer.
  18. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Oh and another thing.
    The only time the Police were called on my watch was when someone shot at me.And I did not ask for them to be called.
    I have never stood on a door in my life.I occasionally went to the door when the "door staff" were having problems with people they did not fancy getting at it with.
    You seem to have a very narrow understand of how club security works for such an expert on it.
  19. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Sounds a bit like you are bitter and like you have fallen out with your old org and are taking your ball home.

    That may not be the case, obviously, but it does come across that way from that message.
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    George Roger posted

    Just out of interest what other dan grades do you hold?

    True but then you have trophies, awards and titles. Have you got any?

    Great, but the delete key over the words Godan would have done, or even better still have Godan on the website but don't say that Grades in the Bujinkan aren't worth anything because you throw out a contradictory message. But your being honest in your beliefe so OK



    So you have no door work experience either, so how are you teaching realistic martial applications as you seem not to have a background where you could have gained any experience in what happens in a violent encounter.


    I know exactly how club security works George, and going to the door when the "door staff" were having problems with people they did not fancy getting at it with, is exactly how club security does not work.
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