Quality control in the Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Aug 8, 2011.

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  1. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    I consider Kacem my friend and he has great patience with me because of that ;-)
    Transmission is not done in class. Pointers are given in class. Correction of movement is given in class. Classes without the transmission are not very effective. Transmission is done in private training. Classes can help of course but the real transmission is always one on one. It has always been that way. When Takamatsu sensei trained with Toda sensei. When Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu sensei, When Ishizuka sensei trained with Hatsumi sensei etc.
    One on one
     
  2. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Very true that.

    Could it be that some detractors do not? ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I can certainly appreciate the value of private training, but don't think that it is fair to say that without it the classes are not effective. I know many people who have trained with a single teacher for many years who haven't had these private lessons but can clearly show movement like their teacher.
     
  4. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    I'm not talking about moving as your teacher, I am talking about transmission. Only part of that is moving as your teacher. Its about training in the same way as the master did. Making the same development the master has gone through when he was young. Walking the same path....
     
  5. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    So it's more about the journey than the destination?
     
  6. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    Its about a journey to a destination. The destination is to become as good as Hatsumi sensei or Takamatsu sensei. Even if most of us will never reach this level it is the destination.

    You see a lot of people in the BJK trying to move like Hatsumi sensei and some even think they can. To their students it looks the same so they think their teacher is good.
    But who walks the same path, who trains the way Hatsumi sensei did when he was younger? Who received from Hatsumi sensei transmission about how to train the way Hatsumi sensei trained when he was younger. Its about receiving the knowledge you need to walk on the path that Hatsumi sensei walked. The original shihan were there at the time. They walked the path with him. That is why they are so important. When you are a uchi deshi to one of the original shihan they can put and help you on the path so you walk it together. Or when you are just a passing student they can let you create your own path.

    Maybe we should continue this in pm?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  7. InoNinpo

    InoNinpo Valued Member

    I don't think you've understood me correctly - I was merely calling you out for being the person attacking George when it was yourself defending the right to use the term Ninjutsu some time ago, describing all the people you have trained with, and at that point were using it more of an advertisement than George.

    From what I can make of George neither he nor Steve are using their ties to the Bujinkan or their grades as advertising more of a this is what I have done in the past but this is what I do now, I pick up some frustration on his part at the state of the Bujinkan and around the grades. Having worked hard for my grades I was proud to have them, and I know grades are supposed to only be for you, but seeing someone who can barely complete the Kamae and looks like he/she would collapse if they hit a solid object that his graded higher than you makes a mockery of the work you have put in and of the art we practice/practiced.

    Unfortunately there is no saving the Bujinkan now, it is way too far gone. I must question the motives of allowing the organisation to get to this state though and also no new soke?

    People have said that Hatsumi only needs one person to transmit the teachings to and for the art to survive, which I suppose is right. But what legacy does he leave?

    Masaaki Hatsumi Grandmaster of Bujinkan Budo TaiJutsu - The only art where fat western men can get a 15th Dan in 5 years and grades are not an indicator of skill?

    Not much of a legacy...
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I so need that on a T-Shirt!
     
  9. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Lots of criticism seems to come from people "passed over" and who saw unworthy people getting graded above them and so decided to quit.

    They then tell us how easy it is to get graded, so grades are worthless... :confused:

    If it was so easy why didn't they manage it?

    Were they as good as they thought?

    :) ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  10. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Who got passed ?
     
  11. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    I wasn't meaning you George.

    It's a common thing to hear. Even reading back in this thread has a few. Doesn't it?
     
  12. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Does it?
    From what I read some people found themselves working to more difficult targets pre 5th Dan
    I have never known of anyone being passed after 5th Dan if they played the game.
    That is not a criticism of them ,btw.I think if you want to stay then you should join in.That includes accepting grades.
    If a top notch chap 5th Dan and an iffy 15th Dan were running courses simultaneously.All but a few well informed would go for the 15th Dans course

    And I doubt many would attend a course being run by a chap below their grading.
    I know there are exceptions,Kacem? But its much the exception.
     
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I dunno

    Most people who've been around for a short while can judge someone's quality for themselves. In my experience even most beginners can see it quickly

    I know several people who attend and even host seminars for people below their rank
     
  14. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    I was not limiting it to post-godan. Was I?

    Many leave before that.
     
  15. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    No ,I know .
    I was just pointing that out.
     
  16. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Still .If you want to be successful business wise.It does no harm.
     
  17. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Honestly in the UK (& probably Europe) I can count the number of people that devote any time to generating cash out of training on the fingers of one hand
     
  18. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    Really????
    You must have a badly mutated hand
     
  19. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    I think this happens a lot, but one of the best examples I can think of would have to go to an infamous Australian ,

    1.dont show up to train with your teacher (Nagato sensei btw) for years.

    2. Notice others and some your 'juniors' are higher ranked than yourself ( perhaps they've been seeking out further instruction/correction:confused:)

    3. Write a rude and disrespectful letter to the soke, demanding a 10 th Dan certificate and badge by return mail in the stamped self addressed evelope provided, and chuck in a bit of fudged emotional blackmail for good measure.

    4. Upon rejection Proclaim all bujinkan grades are worthless, get 'handed out like lollies' etc. and 'I have to leave on principle! Who would want to be part of an organization where grades are given for the asking'

    Would number four be a paradox?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Ino Ninpo posted

    No I don't think you understand. At no time have I derided George for calling what George does is Ninjutsu, others have here but not me. He can call it what he wants.

    Now if you wish to have a go at me about claiming to teach ninjutsu, then thats fine but I am teaching ninjutsu, or what I term Ninjutsu and that term is open to different interpretations by the way.

    But what i'm not doing is claiming that Ninjutsu is rubbish and then claiming to teach ninjutsu as some form of quality assurance.

    That actually came up because people were questioning my background and goes back to a post made about me where I had to justify my past. But saying who you have trained with and being honest about it is a bit different that calling an organisation and the grading system rubbish and then using a grade given by that organisation as a measure of your ability.

    As I posted previously. I have no problem in George promoting himself on the back of his Bujinkan grade. If he earnt it then great, but don't promote yourself or org on the basis of it then deride the organisation and grading system that gave you it.

    So do I more than you know.

    I agree

    Yes I appreciate your points. I've mentioned this also in the past but I felt that, and maybe its my age mellowing me, but my own development is more important than what others are doing in the org.

    To be honest Ino Ninpo i've argued this for years, and maybe some will agree or not agree and I respect George for doing what he did, but I feel that without his Godan George has little he can base his martial arts on hense why he promoted his Godan, and you know what, thats fine, but don't go telling everyone its worthless when you pomote yourself on the back of it.

    Personally, and i've said maybe its my age, but you can worry about quality control till the cows come home, but maybe its just better to get on with your own training and your own students, but its maybe a mistake to cut yourself off from the source too early. In all orgs theres politics, people being given rank or positions of power too early thats life.
     
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