Quality control in the Bujinkan

When Hatsumi studied with Takamatsu, and when Tanemura soke studied with Hatsumi (and later Takamatsu sensei's other students), there was none of this 'I'm showing you crap, figure it out for yourself' pseudo teaching.

Hatsumi himself said in one of his interviews that whenever he didn't get it, Takamatsu would beat him over the haed (literally) and told him he was doing it wrong and he should do it like this.

 

And why do you think that is? Funny thing is, my teacher never shows his student's any pseudo teaching or anything resembling crap either.

 

C'mon now... quit that appeal to history when it isn't proven with certainty that the claim to fame (togakure ryu) was around during the sengoku jidai. no third party records, no slander/libel, not even documented gossip and rumor. quit harking back to the power of the black pajama.

http://classicbudoka.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/84-damasare-hidden-in-plain-sight/

another one from mr. muromoto. funny though, the most common targets of damasare/deception are outsiders/non-members of the ryu. outsiders can be connoted by the term gaikoku-jin/ gaijin. and in warfare, deception is primarily aimed at your enemy, but your own guys know what they only need to know.

so are those guys who are being taught in the way of 'I'm showing you crap, figure it out for yourself' pseudo teaching considered 'gai-jin'? and they spend their time and big bucks(forgot how much for a dan grade) for the soke to consider them 'gai-jin'? don't they know the soke considers them "enemies"? and they pay the soke to show them crap for them to play with it and figure it out for themselves?

boy, are they stupid!

an organization built on mistrust and deception? only a select few knows the real picture? now that is some quality CONTROL! :evil:

Grow INTO WHAT?

and do they really grow?

most important: WHO TEACHES THEM TO GROW? (see above paragraphs about damasare)

you know what they say: everyone reaches the age of maturity, but not everyone becomes mature.

do you really believe that hatsumi does that as an incentive? if so, then he must be incompetent in human psychology. I could cite many a study that humans are more driven by the fear of loss, that's why most organizations tests for standards, and failing that test is the bane of the participants.

if you really believe that hatsumi relies on the good nature of people, even after what happened between him and tanemura, then he must be pollyanna. :banana:

 

I'd say it is because he has no interest in teaching, and more importantly, he doesn't care whether Bujinkan members get taught correctly or not. Which is fair enough, but in that case he shouldn't pretend that they get taught something. We were talking about QC in the Bujinkan as a whole, not the select few in Japan. Quality control in the Bujinkan organization as a whole is non existtent.

The way you describe it, there is a small organization with strong ties to Japan who get taught correctly, and a big Bujinkan sized organization which is basically a ninja fan club, which serves solely to let people live out their ninja dream while making Hatsumi millions of dollars. Is that a correct summary of what you describe?

 

Methinks you misread my post.

Sounds consistent with my experience. If it doesn't with yours, why do you think that is?

 

Those who deem to tell us what this thread is about, they may want to read the OP again...

Wouldn't say a fan club but I would say that if you aren't learning from a legitimate source, then you are irrelevant to the art, ryu, and org.

 

No, this matches my experience as well. This is just how it works in Genbukan. And this might be how it works in the Bujinkan in Japan. This is just not how it works in the Bujinkan outside Japan, which is probably over 90% of the Bujinkan?

 

I have asked Steve to add this to the first paragraph of the JAG Martial Arts home page


"The Godan test simply shows that you can avoid a stick at a given point in time .And the grade is not a testament to either Jason or Georges skill or ability ,as Bujinkan grades are handed out like confetti and are practically worthless.It will be up to the student to decide on the value of the teaching."


I hope that will end any suggestion that I am using my Bujinkan grade to attract custom
Will that suffice?

 

whats confette? Is that a french dish?

 

George, you're becoming quite a pu...

..shover. What's gotten into you, feeling you have to defend your student's site that is merely pointing out a fact. You need to spend less time on those other forums and get back to slugging it out here. Stick to your guns mate.:woo:

 

I don't think removing the details are the right way to go, to most outsiders a 5th dan is a 5th dan is a 5th dan. It's not until people become part of the system that they become aware of the apparent problems with grades and as you have highlighted you no longer teach Ninjutsu.


Also from what I can gather this has been a growing problem as the Bujinkan has grown and someone passing the Sakki test in 1905 like you did cannot really be compared to someone passing the Sakki test now.

At least you did it with Hatsumi.

I know that if I was searching for an instructor I would want someone suitably qualified and a list of qualifications would be what initially drew me to them and I would stick around after witnessing and feeling their ability. The grade may mean a lot less than it did but you were once proud of that grade and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Edit - Isn't also a little ironic that it is Garth calling George out on this when it was him being called out on this 12 months ago, Bitter much? You fought your corner then Garth why the sudden attack on George?

 

Do you think that a traditional ranking from the Genbukan or Jinenkan is worth less or the same as a traditional ranking from the Bujinkan? Take for example Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken Taijutsu Shoden Menkyo.

 

Da Lurker posted

Or is it that he knows that 99% won't use the grades they have been given as an incentive but knows that possibly 1% will.

Remember he only needs one person to carry on the tradition.

 

If he hasnt sorted out a heir by now, he's leaving it a bit late, no.

 

*SNAP*

Come on Gary someone has bitten at last, you've been baiting threads for a week or so now.

 

Same as given out by soke?

A rank received from any of the Shihan(be they still in the Bujinkan or not, as they were all students of Hatsumi sensei) I would see in a similar vein. However, any given from the Genbukan or Jinenkan would have different den associated with them(actually it's a bit more complicated than that with Genbukan I believe).

 

I'm trying to understand your view that only proper learning can happen in Japan. Do we agree that Hatsumi isn't teaching the Ryu Ha these days, so if you can gain the deshi relationship you describe it will be with Shihan?

 

Agreed.

Takamatsuden in the Genbukan you're esstentially dealing with a different ryu-ha, using Shinden Fudo Ryu as an example.

 

OK fair enough. Could you give an example where it would be the same one in both, or is there no ryu-ha in the Genbukan and Jinenkan that is the same as in the Bujinkan?