Quality control in the Bujinkan

This has been an ongoing issue on countless forums, bars after training, and in general since the 80s ninja boom made ninja/ninjutsu a household name. The crazy grading debacle in the Bujinkan(that has resulted in uber dan who can't fight, don't know the techniques, yet have built their own cult empires), the splinter groups like the Jinenkan and Genbukan, and indies started by people who left the Bujinkan for whatever reason, have all been used as reasons why quality control needs to be addressed. Reading an old thread that discussed how BJJ teachers were sent around the world to different cities in order to open schools, and how if Hatsumi had sent the Shihan to go live abroad, this issue would never be the case; it made me think about quality control as an issue in the Bujinkan.

The more I thought about it, the more I realized that there isn't a quality control issue. Here's why:

1) Hatsumi sensei has already preserved the lineage of the Takamatsuden arts through his original Japanese students who have menkyo kaiden. As long as they continue to pass the arts down through their own personal deshi, the arts will continue to survive. Whomever he chooses as the next Soke will also continue the traditions.

2) Hatsumi sensei has also created enough DVDs, books, and other sources to support 1).

3) The foreigners who are members of the Bujinkan but who don't have menkyo kaiden in the arts or who aren't personal deshi of Hatsumi sensei or the shihan don't really count so their quality or lack of it is irrelevant.

There might be those who take offense or who wish to refute 3) in particular, but let's look at 1) first.

The Shihan represent the quality control of the art and have the ability and responsibility to continue the lineage of the ryu that make up the Takamatsuden. This is the traditional way that Japanese martial arts have been passed on for centuries and regardless of whether or not Hatsumi sensei chooses a new Soke to take grandmastership after he retires is a moot point as the ryu are in good hands. Now, what happens then to the organization(the Bujinkan) and the foreigners who study it, is another question but irrelevent to this discussion.

So what separates the Shihan from everyone else? Besides the obvious number of years that they have been studying the ryu directly under Hatsumi Sensei, you have the fact that these men all endured very hardcore training during the years where Hatsumi sensei was testing himself, his art, and his students. These were the days were blood, injuries, sparring, cross-training in other arts, and strict rules for entry to the Bujinkan were in effect. Some of the Shihan were taught very little and required to learn basics for their first few years of training.

The foreigners who came to train during this period were few and far between, and Doron Navon would appear to be the sole one who was trained in the same manner as these few Japanese gentlemen. They continued to train with Hatsumi sensei through the 80s ninja boom(with a few exceptions-notably Tanemura sensei).

So if the Shihan represent the important link to the preservation of the ryu that comprise the Takamatsuden(besides Hatsmi Soke and his heir if/when one appears), then quality control in the Bujinkan seems to have been taken care of. Those who disagree probably do so because they find themselves in the group mentioned in 3) above. If one did find oneself in that group, or is a prospective student of the Bujinkan who does not currently reside in Japan, how should they go about learning the ryu that make up the Takamatsuden. Besides the obvious answer of giving up hope and either being content to study another martial art or learn BBT, the only other plausible option is to go through the same process the Shihan did when learning from Hatsumi Sensei.
To find a teacher of the arts who is either the Soke, or a Menkyo Kaiden in the arts, and to be accepted as a deshi, then train with them weekly in the same manner as the Shihan did with Hatsumi Sensei over enough years to reach Menkyo Kaiden.

Barring this, those without the money, time, commitment, ability, etc. should probably be content with trying to get as close to this ideal as possible. Then there wouldn't be as big a problem with quality control in the part 3) of the Bujinkan organization and those in part 1) wouldn't have to waste their time with those other than dedicated students.

We could take the time to ask how group 3) came to be but that wouldn't really help deal with the quality problem in it, but just for laughs let's examine its creation. The issue of quality control in group 3) first started because of:

1) Stephen K Hayes-Hayes spent a very little time in Japan learning "ninjutsu" and returned to America to start teaching what little he knew or thought he knew about the art that he was briefly exposed to. It is not sure how much of each of the ryu he understood or was exposed to, due to his short time in country, and his lack of Japanese ability. As he was interested in making a name for himself, he added his own theories like the godai to his teaching, yet didn't teach such fundamentals as sanshin to his students. In addition, he kept close control of his organization, Shadows of Iga, and students, so that they had no direct access to Hatsumi Sensei or Japan. Many believed that they wouldn't be "allowed" to train in Japan if they went and SKH did his utmost to control their minds and development.

This is pretty common knowledge but those who dispute this, please talk to any of Hayes' early students, or those that were around in the 80s that still train. Even though Hayes did live in Japan for a few years, his actual amount of weekly training with Hatsumi Sensei and the Shihan could not possibly have added up to more than 5 years(and even this is a stretch as we know he was continuing to host seminars, write books, and personally charge people's vajra thunderbolts).

Considering the depth of the ryu that make up the Takamatsuden, even with 5 years of weekly uninterrupted study with the grandmaster(not saying that he necessarily did have this amount of training), which all of the Shihan had before the art was widely known or practiced, they were still pretty much beginners at that stage. Some were not awarded their shoden until after 3 years of intense, semi-private training with Hatsumi sensei, whereas Hayes received his shodan after his first summer trip to Japan(which was at minimum 1 month, at maximum the entire summer).

2) The sudden influx of foreign students into the Bujinkan caused by the 80s ninja boom resulted in classes going from semi-private affairs where all of the men could speak Japanese and were already somewhat conditioned and knew the basic principles of taijutsu, to massive seminars or classes in which the majority of the students were commando wannabes with little understanding of the principles of movement, less ability to copy the movement, and no language proficiency from which to understand what they were being taught. As more of the original foreign students under Hayes became higher ranked and began opening their own schools and some even starting their own quasi-cults(ie Prather, Richard VanDonk, Kevin Millis, Brian McCarthy, etc et al, ad nauseam), the issue of too many teachers with too little grounding in the arts had reached critical mass.

3) The grading issue. The grading debacle started with SKH. His shodan in a summer set the precedent that so many foreigners chose to follow. None of the Shihan were graded quickly or began teaching without years of direct supervision under Hatsumi Sensei, but in the West, unscrupulous individuals saw there was money to be made by capitalizing on the ninja craze and began teaching ninjutsu. Obvious frauds aside, the Bujinkan also attracted many who wanted to be teachers before they became true students.

For whatever reason, they were allowed to do so by Hatsumi sensei, and the grading system for foreigners in the Bujinkan got to be so laughable, that those with any understanding of the Bujinkan would either leave or shake their head in disbelief at all of the teachers out there who didn't have the faintest clue about the 9 ryu that make up the Takamatsuden, but were happy to teach "ninjutsu" and then later "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu," to as eager students who did not realize the deception they were being exposed to.

People would travel to meet Hatsumi sensei just in order to get rank, and for some reasons, those who were offered rank found it impossible to not accept it(even though some claim they didn't want it), so things snowballed to what we see today.

4) The Japanese way of doing things and the ryu themselves. First we will examine the ryu. Traditional Japanese martial arts are difficult, they are taught in stages, and what is acceptable at an early stage, isn't necessarily correct or acceptable at a later one. Mastering one ryu in a lifetime is an accomplishment, mastering more almost impossible. This is evidenced by the few number of people who have ever done so historically and even at present. To think you are going to master a traditional Japanese martial art in a few years is naive, yet many of the people out there teaching in the Bujinkan around the world began teaching with just such a lack of depth to their own training. It takes a constant refining of technique, physical conditioning and mastering of body mechanics, as well as putting your training to the test to reach any appreciable ability in the ryu that make up the Bujinkan. This is the way that Takamatsu Soke, Hatsumi Soke, and the Shihan learned the arts.

Sadly, this cannot be said for 99.9% of the foreigners who study the Bujinkan. Many people have a basic level of understanding and ability in the Bujinkan, but instead of refining this over stages, they continue to demonstrate an advanced first stage of development, in other words they are repeating the first stage in their development over and over instead of moving on to the next stage and then the one after that. What they demonstrate might "look" similar or the same to what the Shihan are doing but when you feel it, there is a big difference. What is the difference? When a technique is put on you as uke, if you are not automatically out of the shobu from their first movement, then it is not correct(at a higher level). If they are applying the technique on you in a 1-2-3 kind of way and it takes time before it starts to work on you(and any other uke they use whether staged or spontaneously), then they are still at a lower stage.

Not that their application of the technique is "wrong," just that it isn't right at a higher level. For techniques to work in real life, they have to work from the moment the person attacks or puts their hands on you. If you cannot control, counter, off-balance them, counterattack, etc all in the first instant, then you still have a long way to go. So are there a lot of people out there with more or less good beginner level basics? Sure. However, how many foreigners were made to just be an uke for their first year or two of practice in the Bujinkan or were only taught the kihon happo or basic attacks for their first year? Moreover, if they cannot make their techniques work in real time against non-compliant opponents in real time, and not just arm hangers(people who pose with their arms out like tree branches), then they shouldn't be teaching.

A lot of people who left the art early because they didn't think it would work probably saw too many teacher's still at this stage and wrote them off before seeing the depths of the arts. Or after their own years of learning, they still hadn't reached a higher level and tried other things to make up for their lack of advancement(other arts, using strength or speed instead of proper posture and relaxed, fluid body movement). The more advanced your stage, the more important constant refinements and correction from a master in
the art, hence the inability to do more than just show these aspects in a big class environment. They really need to be passed on individually, and the principles applied to the person's body type and ability. Without this more advanced training, a smaller or weaker person will not be able to apply the techniques on someone larger, faster, stronger, etc.

As the early years that these arts were exposed to the masses were before those exposed to them were able to reach this higher level(before they began teaching themselves), and as the kata of the ryu were mostly unknown, it became more difficult to get to this deeper level without living in Japan for an extended period. Even to this day, neither Hatsumi sensei nor the shihan have lived abroad for several years in order to further the skills of the foreign members of the Bujinkan(not sure how long Manaka sensei was in the States), so the only possible way to truly learn from them is to make a commitment to become a long-term student of one of them in Japan. Now I know somebody is going to say, "But the quality of the foreigners who visit or live in Japan isn't any different(or much different) from what you see in the taijutsu from other foreigners." Thus this contradicts the idea that you have to learn in Japan.

However, to contradict the argument for learning in Japan, one has to be able to refute the ability of the Shihan and at the ability of their students(people such as Nagase, Nakadai, etc) and use them as the baseline for comparison and not the foreigners who live in Japan. These foreigners might have already developed bad habits from their training they got in their own country before moving to Japan or might not have trained in Japan in the same way as the Japanese students who study the art in Japan. Or you can look at Doron Navon, who was a foreigner who trained with Hatsumi Sensei and with the Shihan, and who developed a similar standard of ability to the Shihan.


Now getting to Japanese culture. So far as quality control is concerned, there are a few issues: rank and how it is given out, people being allowed to stay in the organization even though they are a detriment to it, and the issue of how to deal with those who are a detriment. Often rank is seen from a different perspective than in the West. If you look at many martial arts, companies, etc. you will find that the true people with the ability fall somewhere in the middle rank, and the top ranked are there because of family, relation, or for having done something special for the school/company(like donate a lot of money or get them some political position or due to their family's prestige, etc). So handing out rank for things other than ability is not unknown(not that I think it is the best way to handle rank, but that is just me). Clearly Westerners, especially when they have a lot riding on it, want to believe that their rank is a true and valid representation of their ability or worth in regards to martial skill, but as someone said(was it in the Karate Kid?), the belt was there to keep their pants from falling down.

A few years back in the West, people were amazed at the phenomenon of people who were called "window gazer's," or 窓際族。 This referred to middle-aged Japanese salarimen who had been passed up for promotion and responsibility in their companies, yet instead of being fired, they were allowed to continue to work at their companies, but with nothing to do, they just sat there and stared out the window all day. Many other examples exist, but the point is that people are allowed to hang around, even when their usefulness has past. In addition, we all know that they Japanese in general perfer a harmonious atmosphere to disruptive argumentative incidents. Things are better when everyone is allowed to save face and when possible, confrontation is avoided in favor of other ways of handling issues. So giving in and letting people think they are getting what they want, allowing people to stick around when in reality they aren't welcome or wanted, and awarding people rank they haven't earned yet, are all common. Look at how few people have been told they cannot train in the Bujinkan or who have been kicked out, in all the years Stephen Hayes, Mark O'Brien, and Ralph Severe(not sure on that one though) are the major names that come to mind. On the Japanese side, there were a few doosies come to mind but they appear to have been stalking and sexual harrassment related incidents and were very rare and don't really need to be discussed here.

So for all those who worry about the quality control or ranking issues in the Bujinkan are really wasting their time. The arts will continue to be passed on to a select few like they have been for centuries(as is any other koryu art), without a lot of fanfare and without much consideration to the masses who have flocked to the Bujinkan. As is typical in koryu, those outside the inner circle who will continue to perpetuate the arts, will continue to be less of a consideration to those inside it.

 

food for thought:

let's change the title from bujinkan to genbukan or jinenkan. have you guys seen threads like this? FWIW, I haven't seen things like 'GBK/JNK sucks SO bad' that much. ever wonder why?

IMHO maybe it is one of two things:

1. they suck BUT they are quiet, i.e. don't talk about FIGHT CLUB. (obviously they heed this red message: http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/bjk/message01.htm )

2. they are good enough that critics don't have the ammunition to fire back at them.

funny thing is that bujinkan members target mostly MEMBERS OF THE SAME ORGANIZATION. ever hear that from the other x-kans? how about koryu?

other frequent target is toshindo/SKH. hmm.. ever seen a guy from toshindo target THEIR OWN MEMBERS? anyone?

oh guys, lookee here: out of the 4 big ninpo organizations (bujinkan, genbukan, jinenkan and toshindo) the ones most criticized are the ones with the MOST NUMBER OF MENKYO KAIDEN (bujinkan) and that which has NO MENKYO KAIDEN (toshindo). what's up with that, folks?



just food for thought.

 

Isn't it probably the relative size of the Bujinkan that causes it to be the most criticised organisation?

As we always say rank should not matter to anyone but yourself...but it does matter if somebody with a lack of even fundamentals is charging unwitting students to learn something wrong (not just poor but wrong), not to us but to that student.

Exactly! And that is the hard bit...I believe you once referred to a vid clip as showing "patty-cake" jutsu. Most of the criticism seems to come from the old holding-the-arm-out-while-tori-applies-technique school of thought.



Mind you, I've seen some right rubbish when I looked in the mirror too!

 

Reality Please posted

He may do, but that does'nt take away the fact that there is a quality control issue.

Are these the DVDs with the intentional mistakes in them?

If we take point 1 and 3 together its a little saying that a top chef is going to pass on the secret award winning pasta recipe to his son, but is still content in serving microwave pasta in his restaurants and allowing students (who havent received the secret recipe) to serve their version of the chefs recipe all over the world and use his name in some franchise of a product thats actually not been served.

No the shihan do not represent the quality control, they represent the level that people can get to if they properly study the martial art (Bujinkan) over many years. Its the other non shihan that represent the quality control, or lack of it.

Not really as those foreigners will still represent the quality either good or bad.

I think your showing the case for hard sparring, resistant training partners etc.

No, only the fact that the lineage will continue.

I think your misrepresenting the terms quality control as seen now in the Bujinkan, and the continuation of the true art through another.

Of course that new grandmaster may want to bring in quality control for all students, in a similar way to the Jinenkan and Genbukan, but its the quality control now that the Bujinkan is judged on.

Isn't that a non sequitur

Don't want to get involved in the SKH debate, but as Hatsumi gave SKH a black belt for just those few months training, do you not think that possibly Hatsumi was somewhat to blame.

Yet by 1986 was a 6th dan, so if we say for the sake of argument that Hayes was not any good at all, why oh why did Hatsumi award him this high grade?

And does not suggest that part of the problem in the Bujinkan Quality control lies with Hatsumi given out high rank to people that are simply not worth it?

Again whose fault is that?

As you said that Hayes stopped people going to Japan, i'm presuming that a lot of the people turning up in Japan were not Hayes students, and therefore based on what you posted above, then maybe Hayes was right (which I dont think for a moment he did) in stopping people going to Japan, because look what has happened now.

Although this idea that SKH stopped his students going to Japan is slightly refuted by Jack Hoban who says...

http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle_hoban.htm

Again, where does the fault lie?

Agreed, hense this is the root of the Bujinkan quality control issue, which you say is not a quality control issue.

Reminds me of the Wimbledon seminar in the 1990s when Noguchi sat with his back against the wall shaking his head when the new 5th dans were asked to demonstrate.

Did you accept your rank, and if so why?

and if you did, what makes you so different to all the others that accepted rank?

I totally agree.

Again completely agree

Blimey i'm still agreeing with you.

OK I will. The quality of foreigners who live or train in Japan does not reflect any difference between thos that do not live in Japan.

GThe thing is though that you have already said that these guys started when the training was very tough, and therefore maybe thats whats missing. Its not about therefore who you train with, or how long you have lived in japan, but about how you were trained. Peopel like Tanemura, Manaka and Doron as you say trained in the days when blood being spilt etc was common, and as training is much more laid back this could be the problem.

But he trained in the days when you could get knocked out, an arm broken or a bloody nose. How many times do you see this type of training in Japan now?

Yep you seem to have answered your own question. Regardless of you saying that there is not a quality control issue, you have just pointed out the quality control issues you say do not exist in the Bujinkan.

 

I don't understand why you would create a problem and then a solution in one message, unless it is to validate yourself and your views? If that post was an answer to something pertinent then maybe it would be different, but otherwise it is something of a straw man.

That said, I agree with a lot of your comments, however I think it is time to accept that there are foreigners in Japan, and around the world that are better than the Japanese at this art, perhaps not the very best, but up in the top 10.

 

Which foreigners?

Which Japanese?

Without a lot of expounding on this, you really haven't said anything. :vanish: You not only didn't say what you meant by better(ie-having menkyo kaiden, being able to demonstrate all of the waza, their principles, and meanings, being able to demonstrate fighting ability using said techniques, etc), you didn't say whom you were referring to.

 

not surprising. I have read in places that the day is coming (if not here already) that the place to learn Koryu will be outside Japan.

Technically though I think the adage is what is called in literature a wisdom warning to their own people but it's similar to your point.

 

They represent the continuation of the ryu, which is a part of what koryu are concerned about(some would argue the part). This is the control group that has the quality. By non shihan I take it you are referring to their deshi?

No, they represent themselves and their interpretation of their teacher's interpretation(and so on) of Hatsumi sensei's representation of the arts.

With quality intact.

Another what? The organization is there for the perpetuation of the arts is it not? That is being taken care of.

Well, we would have to ask an outsider or someone from group 1) now wouldn't we? As you are in group 3), one could argue that your view is biased.

Don't want to get involved in the blame game but nobody put a gun to SKH's head and said you have to popularize ninjutsu in the West and make up stuff as you go along. I am eternally grateful to him for bringing ninjutsu to everyone's attention but just because Hitler took an obscure Indian symbol and made it to an instantly recognizable around the world doesn't mean anyone has to necessarily agree with how he used it. Just to play Devil's Advocate, let's say Hatsumi sensei was partially to blame for giving Hayes a black belt. So what? It is still irrelevant to the continuation of the art. For some reason you seem to want people to go around pointing fingers at Hatsumi sensei and calling him a bad man for letting all those crappy foreigners make fools of themselves and embarrass his arts around the world. Maybe he doesn't care. The question is why do you? All those who accepted rank and began teaching before they should have were grown men(women) who made their own choices and have to be responsible for those choices.

Not concerned.

What problem?

You're confused. In the early days, Hayes very definitely controlled American's access to Hatsumi sensei, if you know any people that were close to Hayes in his organization, they would confirm this. The people flooding to Japan came much later, people who had already been exposed for years to the Hayes version, Peter King version, Brian McCarthy version, etc of the arts before going. If more foreigners had traveled to Japan without prior experience in the Takamatsuden arts(like Doron did), then things would have been very different.

When did Hayes first go to Japan to train? When did Hatsumi sensei first come to the States to teach? When did Hayes take his first group of students to Japan to train? How many other foreigners went to study in the interim in Japan, whether Hayes students or otherwise? When you can answer these questions you may understand what I wrote.

Somewhere under San Andreas Lake.

Again, the problem of group 3) is irrelevant. If you were allowed into Picasso's atelier and he showed you his masterpieces, would you spend your time critiquing his sketches, doodles, and works that weren't for sale; even if he did show you them stuffed in disarray in the basement?

Which rank? I have declined rank in the past when I knew I didn't deserve it, have you?

My relationship with my teacher and his with his. There are other differences but that is the most important perhaps...

Do you mean does not demonstrate? Even if it didn't(which you would have to prove by showing us all the foreigners who live and train in Japan and compare them with a good sampling of those who do not), they are not necessarily in group 1) even if they do live and/or train in Japan. You would have to be able to demonstrate that a foreigner who was never exposed to the arts outside of Japan and only ever trained in Japan was as bad as the other foreigners for your point to have any merit.

I also mentioned their students. Of course it is who you trained with, under what circumstances, and for how long in Japan! If Hatsumi sensei and all the shihan lived in Dublin, Bucharest, or Salt Lake City, that is still where one would have to go to learn. The arts are not Kyokushin Karate so no, it isn't just about toughing it out either.

Depends on where you go.

What question? Why people are worried about group 3) instead of 1)? Beats me.:dunno:

 

Quite true, and somewhat deliberate.

I believe that within the Booj you will find all of the factions that gravitated towards the other Kans and the Indies. Those who feel that the Kata must be preserved, those that believe that people do not know Tsuki and others who think that the attacks are outdated, and the principles within them should be made functional in the modern world.

Is it a Koryu with Kata that must be religiously studied and handed down man to man? With Menkyo Kaiden is there full transmission? What happens when a current MK holder in the Bujinkan gives his student MK? EG what happens when Ishizuka gives it to Kacem? How does that change matters?

With Rank being nullified as we are all 15th Dans then what is the deciding factor? Movement? The ability to use this in a real world environment? The ability to recite the name of all Kata?

You also did not say who you were talking about - just saying 'Shihan' but that is a wide and undefined pool of people.

The simple fact now is that there are some foreigners with better movement than some Japanese - it only takes time for one to 'go up the rankings' because there are people living in Japan, and around the world that train long and hard, and there are people in Japan and around the world that turn up once a month and don't train with the right people.

Who are the right people? What makes them right?

Why not list who you consider Shihan. Then list the top 10 guys in Japan and list your criteria for why they make the top 10?

MK? If I want a MK I would go train with the Genbukan, because it is attainable there at the moment.

 

Can't have it both ways. It's safe to say that without the "Ninja Boom", most of us on the forum wouldn't yet have heard of any of the ryuha of any of the arts associated with ninpo.

The ultimate responsibility for all ranking and licensures goes to one particular man. We all know who he is. If he wants the situation to change, he can do so.

Some may consider the grading policy to be a debacle, but if Mr. Hatsumi personally feels it is a debacle, he can certainly change course at any time.

A non sequitur. The survival of a given lineage does not necessarily inherently imply that a dojo is teaching proper or improper material.

What does Mr. Hatsumi feel that the DVDs and books and the like are doing for him and/or his students?

What do consumers of said DVDs, books, etc. feel that the items are doing for them?

And we all know how controversial the "learn Art X via media" issue tends to become.

Sounds quite strange. Why don't they really count? I'm not instructor level in any art and am hardly of any consequence in Muso Shinden Ryu (let alone a menkyo-kaiden-sha in that art), but if I were to go around making crap videos or illegitimate instructional videos or disrespecting my instructors or whatever, word would quite likely get around about it. (Hell, in the case of something as widespread as Bujinkan, even people outside the art get word of it when people do such things.)

Not the "Art X is too special to be learned by ignorant newbies off the street" bunkum again! In any civilian-martial-arts group, once the art becomes sufficiently widely disseminated, the day very well may eventually come when incoming student bases do not comprise groups selected for physical ability and/or tactical capability above that of the general population.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you that language barriers and oversized student-teacher ratios are a hindrance. However, if the senior leadership were intent on having the people attending said poorer-quality lessons not possess licensure to teach, they could easily refrain from issuing it (or revoke it where it already exists.)

Might want to explain that to Mr. Hatsumi (who claims grandmastership in nine!) or some of his students (for an example, Mr. Tanemura appears to claim mastery of more than 20!).

What constitutes "usefulness" in a dojo, and when does a given individual's "usefulness" "pass"?

 

By now anyone who has read anything I posted with the word Shihan on it on MAP should know that I am referring to the Japanese gentlemen who were Hatsumi sensei's original students. I would probably still consider Kobayashi sensei in this group but I am not sure whether he teaches anymore or not(or if it matters). These are the guys in the old pictures, some in the old videos, and most people in the organization have heard their names or met the bulk of them.

 

Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

Reality Please posted

I think hour still very confused about what you call quality control and the higher levels of the art.

In my opinion quality control is how quality is maintained amongst the teachers, students and teachings of the art, but what your calling quality control is the abilities of what you say are the top Japanese.

And of course you being in the Bujinkan, your not biased?

No your right but again Hatsumi had no problem with writing books via Hayes, or going to the States to teach at Mr Hayes invitation. I think Dr Hatsumi knew exactly what Hayes was doing and could easily have stopped it.

It might even be possible that Hatsumi encouraged him to teach, who knows?

When have I ever said he was a bad man. But I do think that some of the blame for QC lays at his feet.

Maybe he doesn't.

I don't, I'm not in the Bujinkan. In fact the more the Bujinkan have a problem with Quality control the more students go to other xkans or train with the independants like me.

Well again this has been discussed before, but IIRC Jack Hoban mentioned this when he was in the UK a few years ago, and his version was very different to yours. I would say more but lets not go down a route that has been discussed in another thread and derail this one.

As I said its been covered before in another thread.

What I am saying is that it does not reflect a difference.

I guess because it is those that reflect the bad quality control.

 

Kobayashi never existed, remember? It was just the brand name of the porcelain on the detective's coffee cup.

 

I thought it was the scenario Kirk reprogrammed....

 

Of course he existed, since he rode off in the same car as Verbal in the end. It's just that his real name wasn't Kobayashi.

 

Or...was it?

 

RealityPlease said: "Mastering one ryu in a lifetime is an accomplishment, mastering more almost impossible."


This simply is not true! Only look in the Bujinkan or Genbukan at the top and you will see a couple that already did this and continue to do so. Was not Takamatsu Sensei a master of many by his early twenties? I agree that it takes a certain unique person to be able to master more than one system but it is certainly not impossible. I have met a few outside of the Bujinkan who have done so!

 

If the quality is maintained because the original Shihan trained differently back in the day how will the next generation of Shihan do it?Because people dont seem to train like they did now.So will it end with the last of the hard trainers?

 

Hello! That's why I said almost. It is clearly not impossible, as a few people have been able to do so. They are not average nor are they the norm, it is a rarity when you look at the number of people who practice martial arts. Hatsumi sensei studied judo, boxing, karate, Asayama Ichiden ryu, Masaaki ryu, etc plus the ryu he inherited from Takamatsu sensei. I already clarified this a page ago btw.